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mstrina911
06-01-2009, 06:51 PM
My sister does braids. I have yet to see anyone do them better. This weekend she was doing some cornrows for this 7 year old girl. She added the hair to the tips and covered with beads. My 5 year old thought it was the cutest thing and asked if she could get extensions. I told her no. And she was like, but mom.. and I said no again. I said that maybe she could get something similar. The mom looks at me with a stank look as if to say.. why not... it's just hair. I had to to answer her look. I don't believe that small children should wear fake hair. I said.. (speaking to anyone who was listening) my daughters hair is long. (Its between apl and bsl) I feel that by putting fake hair and perms in our children hair that we are telling them that what they have isn't good enough or beautiful. She got all defensive and tried to defend her actions, but I didn't care. I knew that what I said hit a nerve. Eventually, she shut up and we sat in an awkward silence until she left. The other mom that was waiting said that she agreed with me even though she never thought about it like that. My sis says I was picking, but she got over it. I swear, I would not have said anything if she didn't look at me like that. I just wanted to share.

BlackAngelPlayah
06-01-2009, 08:30 PM
I don&#39;t agree with it, but I&#39;d prefer weaves to perms for kids any day.. <_< But honestly I don&#39;t think kids need either.


You don&#39;t have to have long hair to be beautiful. You don&#39;t have to have thicker hair, or straighter hair or SILKIER hair to be beautiful. Beauty comes from within and shines to the outside. I know some people don&#39;t LOOK beautiful at first sight, but MOST of the time the beauty comes out when you get to know them. (However I&#39;ve met ugly on the inside and outside... TRUST.. :P )

Anyway, I don&#39;t agree with altering your children&#39;s appearance to fit some superficial, ARTIFICIAL mold.

:wub:

STRANDed
06-01-2009, 08:43 PM
Well, there are various reasons that people wear weaves and get perms, but since this topic seems to be about kids and weaves, I won&#39;t go into kids and perms.

Your argument is that through adding extensions to your child&#39;s hair, you would be sending them the message that their hair isn&#39;t beautiful. I don&#39;t think it sends that message, especially if your child didn&#39;t ask to get a permanent weave. If your child&#39;s hair is short and thin, would you discourage her from growing it, because well, that is her hair and she should accept it as is? If not, then what is the difference when she wants weave to add length and thickness to her look? Besides, some parents put weaves in their child&#39;s her because it&#39;s easier for them to maintain.

However, I do feel that there are adult styles and children styles. Your child should not be 5 years old walking around with some Beyonce type weave. Your five year old should also not be sporting cornrows with two-toned effects or hot red and blonde combinations. A child should look like a child. I have seen children with crochet braids (extensions) that still look like children, and I have seen children with booty micro braids that looked like women (smh).

You say your child&#39;s hair is long and thick already. Why would she want weave then? And would you feel the same way if her hair was not thick and long. It seems that your daughter just wanted a style. Why did you interpret it as her wanting weave? I am so confused.

Cerendipity
06-01-2009, 08:48 PM
my mother always had my hair braided when I was little , and my cousin always added in fake hair , not for length because it was already long , but for thickness, I always had the baddest braids in town. I always loved it because I looked like every other little kid. I never had beads and wanted those so bad so I could hear the click clack sound.

Thats the one thing I loved growing up, sitting between my cousin legs getting an intricate braid design on my hair. I never felt "fake" though. The hair added in was never longer than my own hair either.

chachadiva
06-01-2009, 08:52 PM
Fake hair doesn&#39;t exist in my universe. So, I don&#39;t believe in fake hair on kids.

STRANDed
06-01-2009, 08:53 PM
I also don&#39;t get the perception that just because you want a certain style that you are interpreting that as a standard of beauty. There&#39;s many on this site that wear twist outs and braid outs that alter their texture, but I don&#39;t think that means they are looking at the texture they get from twist outs to be more beautiful than their naturally kinky fro. If you are styling her hair, you are still altering her appearance whether you add hair or not. So again, I am confused about the argument.

mariajay
06-01-2009, 09:01 PM
i really do not like to see small children wearing any kind of fake hair, what is wrong with the adults teaching littlte girls to love and appreciate what they have.can&#39;t say i see that many european or asian litte girls wearing fake hair.

star13
06-01-2009, 09:14 PM
I wore braid extentions as a child, the first time being in the second grade, I can understand about it hurting a child&#39;s self esteem, because when I had those Bsl length braids in the second grade I was so happy to have hair like all the white girls, I was swinging it around and everything, I was sad when it was time to take them out. I know my mom didn&#39;t let me get them because she wanted me to feel badly, it was just a style to her, she misguided about hair care in general, and still stuck in her ways now.

I don&#39;t think kids should have full length chrome weaves though, or fake pony tails, or anyover the top nonsense.

masoesa
06-01-2009, 09:43 PM
I agree that children don&#39;t need fake hair. I also agree that it can send the wrong message but merely because children&#39;s hair is not fully grown yet. By adding extensions to it the roots can easily be damaged. It&#39;s just not healthy.

LBellatrix
06-01-2009, 09:56 PM
In my ideal world where little girls live and grow, there would be no fake hair or CFC, period.

In the world of the educated parent/guardian (which describes my black female friends with kids): No CFC period; fake hair only for fun and only for little girls who understand that fake hair doesn&#39;t mean their real hair is bad.

In the world where most little girls live: Between fake hair and CFC, I&#39;d rather it be fake hair although technically, if done too tightly, it can be just as damaging as CFC. At least the girls&#39; eyes aren&#39;t at risk of being burned (see Tyra show).

With all due respect and I&#39;m trying to hold on to my patience here: Why is there even an argument about this? Is it that hard to teach black girls to love their hair regardless of its texture and length? Or are parents too worried about what other people (family, strangers, potential school bullies) will think?

(deep sigh) It&#39;s a good thing I don&#39;t have kids... :icon_headshake:

Lady Xi
06-01-2009, 10:20 PM
I had braid extentions sparingly as child between age 9 and 13. I kept my relaxed hair in braids most of the time so experimenting with extensions came natural, especially with cousins learning how to do it and wanting the practice. I can remember maybe two styles: once with large long braids put up in bantu knots then let down and the second in micro-pixie braids. They never made me feel any lesser and I enjoyed them then for the same reasons I do now-- They are low maintenance, I didn&#39;t have to mess with my hair daily, they looked nice, and I didn&#39;t have to worry about two textures..convenience. I was at the age where the maintenance and styling of my hair shifted from being my mother&#39;s sole responsibility to being mainly mine (with the exception of who paid for relxers or braids and their frequency)...so convenience was important.

Plus: I hated relaxers..and having braids meant I didn&#39;t have to get relaxers. My extensions were always natural colored and aside from the first experiment my cousin did...they never exceeded much more than shoulder length which was the length of my own hair. I wasn&#39;t trying to be like a white chic..and my mother preferred I didn&#39;t have them because the am mount of shedding she witnessed after 3 mo in braids always made uneasy even tho my hair was never any less full.



I can understand preferences against hair extensions in children but I can also appreciate the convenience of them for the child and parent. Wildly ornate and unnatural colored weaves and extensions however I can see no purpose in for children.

Convenience was the same reason I occasionally wore fake ponys throughout middle school and highschool....I was still relaxed and it made managing my hair easier for me because all I had to do was jam/gel and tie down my edges and pull my hair back into a bun to put the pony on... Annnd it&#39;s been the same reason I danced between my hair and extension styles through-out college

Xeph
06-01-2009, 11:17 PM
can&#39;t say i see that many european or asian litte girls wearing fake hair.[/b]
How many Euro or Asian girls have kinky hair like we do?

I&#39;m not going to lie....if I could, I&#39;d have "White girl" or "Asian" hair. It&#39;s long, it&#39;s shiny, and you can do all sorts of things I can&#39;t do with the nap on my head.

Of course, my world is also "colored" by a lack of "color". I&#39;m adopted by a white woman, I&#39;ve grown up in Green Bay, WI, and the only other black people around when I was growing up were the Packer players. So I&#39;ve always envied the pretty flowing hair of the white girls and Hmong girls in my classes.

They could put their hair in a french braid, or a pony tail, or a bun. They could have bangs or those GORGEOUS Scarlett O&#39;Hara curls and waves.

.....My hair didn&#39;t (and still doesn&#39;t) do a dog gone thing but sit on my head :P

When I was straightening my hair (and my mother didn&#39;t make me, I WANTED to), it lasted about 7 years, burn after burn after burn. Mostly I did it because I was used to it, but I was always disappointed because it didn&#39;t move like "White girl" hair, and it didn&#39;t shine like "Asian girl" hair.

What is my point with all this? You should love what you got, sure.....but it&#39;s important to kids to fit in too. And sometimes? Sometimes it&#39;s just NICE to have something different!

I had completely natural cornrows as a little girl (5-7) complete with beads. Never a fake hair in there.

My senior year of high school I got microbraid extensions done and I LOVED it. Hurt like a mother, but I LOVED it because my BRAIDS moved like a white girl&#39;s hair. And they were black and shiny like an Asian girl&#39;s hair.

I got complimented on the braids instead of being teased for the "rats nest" on my head.

I think people have too much of a tendency to look down on others that make choices different from their own. It&#39;s fine to disagree, but adding some extensions to a little girl&#39;s hair for volume or evenness isn&#39;t a big deal IMO. As long as she still looks her age, what&#39;s the problem?

My boyfriend is Asian, and lord only knows what kind of hair we&#39;re going to bestow on that poor child, but if it&#39;s a little girl, if it won&#39;t cause her serious harm, I&#39;ll see nothing wrong with trying different things to alter her style (if she asks) so she can feel better about herself or fit in with the other kids.

masoesa
06-02-2009, 12:35 AM
I think people have too much of a tendency to look down on others that make choices different from their own. It&#39;s fine to disagree, but adding some extensions to a little girl&#39;s hair for volume or evenness isn&#39;t a big deal IMO. As long as she still looks her age, what&#39;s the problem?


[/b]

I don&#39;t agree. As an adult you have the right to do with your hair whatever you want but for our children&#39;s sake I think we should give it a deeper thought.

Just look at the numbers. 73% of African American women suffer from hair issues. Disproportinal by any standard, due to our hair care practices. Nobody cares. 2% of white girls have anorexia and there is a world wide campaign. If we don&#39;t get serious and do something about this ourselves nobody will.

It&#39;s not a personal thing, we have to get real and change our behavior collectively.

red_980
06-02-2009, 12:43 AM
I had braid extentions sparingly as child between age 9 and 13. I kept my relaxed hair in braids most of the time so experimenting with extensions came natural, especially with cousins learning how to do it and wanting the practice. I can remember maybe two styles: once with large long braids put up in bantu knots then let down and the second in micro-pixie braids. They never made me feel any lesser and I enjoyed them then for the same reasons I do now-- They are low maintenance, I didn&#39;t have to mess with my hair daily, they looked nice, and I didn&#39;t have to worry about two textures..convenience. I was at the age where the maintenance and styling of my hair shifted from being my mother&#39;s sole responsibility to being mainly mine (with the exception of who paid for relxers or braids and their frequency)...so convenience was important.

Plus: I hated relaxers..and having braids meant I didn&#39;t have to get relaxers. My extensions were always natural colored and aside from the first experiment my cousin did...they never exceeded much more than shoulder length which was the length of my own hair. I wasn&#39;t trying to be like a white chic..and my mother preferred I didn&#39;t have them because the am mount of shedding she witnessed after 3 mo in braids always made uneasy even tho my hair was never any less full.
I can understand preferences against hair extensions in children but I can also appreciate the convenience of them for the child and parent. Wildly ornate and unnatural colored weaves and extensions however I can see no purpose in for children.

Convenience was the same reason I occasionally wore fake ponys throughout middle school and highschool....I was still relaxed and it made managing my hair easier for me because all I had to do was jam/gel and tie down my edges and pull my hair back into a bun to put the pony on... Annnd it&#39;s been the same reason I danced between my hair and extension styles through-out college
[/b]

I think there is HUGE difference between seeing a four year old girl with a weave vs. a preteen or teenager.

GalaxyGirl2012
06-02-2009, 12:43 AM
no way, no how...

why do people try and make their children into mini-adults instead of allowing them be kids?

maybe this is a function of age, but when i was growing up at that age it was primarily braids and the sometime press n curl on special occasions. i think too many people nowadays are pushing their issues on to their kids at too early an age

red_980
06-02-2009, 12:44 AM
How many Euro or Asian girls have kinky hair like we do?

I&#39;m not going to lie....if I could, I&#39;d have "White girl" or "Asian" hair. It&#39;s long, it&#39;s shiny, and you can do all sorts of things I can&#39;t do with the nap on my head.

Of course, my world is also "colored" by a lack of "color". I&#39;m adopted by a white woman, I&#39;ve grown up in Green Bay, WI, and the only other black people around when I was growing up were the Packer players. So I&#39;ve always envied the pretty flowing hair of the white girls and Hmong girls in my classes.

They could put their hair in a french braid, or a pony tail, or a bun. They could have bangs or those GORGEOUS Scarlett O&#39;Hara curls and waves.

.....My hair didn&#39;t (and still doesn&#39;t) do a dog gone thing but sit on my head :P

When I was straightening my hair (and my mother didn&#39;t make me, I WANTED to), it lasted about 7 years, burn after burn after burn. Mostly I did it because I was used to it, but I was always disappointed because it didn&#39;t move like "White girl" hair, and it didn&#39;t shine like "Asian girl" hair.

What is my point with all this? You should love what you got, sure.....but it&#39;s important to kids to fit in too. And sometimes? Sometimes it&#39;s just NICE to have something different!

I had completely natural cornrows as a little girl (5-7) complete with beads. Never a fake hair in there.

My senior year of high school I got microbraid extensions done and I LOVED it. Hurt like a mother, but I LOVED it because my BRAIDS moved like a white girl&#39;s hair. And they were black and shiny like an Asian girl&#39;s hair.

I got complimented on the braids instead of being teased for the "rats nest" on my head.

I think people have too much of a tendency to look down on others that make choices different from their own. It&#39;s fine to disagree, but adding some extensions to a little girl&#39;s hair for volume or evenness isn&#39;t a big deal IMO. As long as she still looks her age, what&#39;s the problem?

My boyfriend is Asian, and lord only knows what kind of hair we&#39;re going to bestow on that poor child, but if it&#39;s a little girl, if it won&#39;t cause her serious harm, I&#39;ll see nothing wrong with trying different things to alter her style (if she asks) so she can feel better about herself or fit in with the other kids.
[/b]

Nappy women can do the same with their hair. All it takes is patience, practice, and maybe some assistance.

GalaxyGirl2012
06-02-2009, 12:49 AM
Nappy women can do the same with their hair. All it takes is patience, practice, and maybe some assistance.
[/b]
agreed .. the problem comes because of the relaxers (especially the @ home kind) + unhealthy hair upkeep + constant manipulation

lashon20
06-02-2009, 12:50 AM
I don&#39;t believe in chidren wearing weaves, makeup, or hair dye. I believe stuff like that are for grown folks.

star13
06-02-2009, 12:51 AM
How many Euro or Asian girls have kinky hair like we do?

I&#39;m not going to lie....if I could, I&#39;d have "White girl" or "Asian" hair. It&#39;s long, it&#39;s shiny, and you can do all sorts of things I can&#39;t do with the nap on my head.

Of course, my world is also "colored" by a lack of "color". I&#39;m adopted by a white woman, I&#39;ve grown up in Green Bay, WI, and the only other black people around when I was growing up were the Packer players. So I&#39;ve always envied the pretty flowing hair of the white girls and Hmong girls in my classes.

They could put their hair in a french braid, or a pony tail, or a bun. They could have bangs or those GORGEOUS Scarlett O&#39;Hara curls and waves.

.....My hair didn&#39;t (and still doesn&#39;t) do a dog gone thing but sit on my head :P

When I was straightening my hair (and my mother didn&#39;t make me, I WANTED to), it lasted about 7 years, burn after burn after burn. Mostly I did it because I was used to it, but I was always disappointed because it didn&#39;t move like "White girl" hair, and it didn&#39;t shine like "Asian girl" hair.

What is my point with all this? You should love what you got, sure.....but it&#39;s important to kids to fit in too. And sometimes? Sometimes it&#39;s just NICE to have something different!

I had completely natural cornrows as a little girl (5-7) complete with beads. Never a fake hair in there.

My senior year of high school I got microbraid extensions done and I LOVED it. Hurt like a mother, but I LOVED it because my BRAIDS moved like a white girl&#39;s hair. And they were black and shiny like an Asian girl&#39;s hair.

I got complimented on the braids instead of being teased for the "rats nest" on my head.

I think people have too much of a tendency to look down on others that make choices different from their own. It&#39;s fine to disagree, but adding some extensions to a little girl&#39;s hair for volume or evenness isn&#39;t a big deal IMO. As long as she still looks her age, what&#39;s the problem?

My boyfriend is Asian, and lord only knows what kind of hair we&#39;re going to bestow on that poor child, but if it&#39;s a little girl, if it won&#39;t cause her serious harm, I&#39;ll see nothing wrong with trying different things to alter her style (if she asks) so she can feel better about herself or fit in with the other kids.
[/b]

Many people that have come to NP have felt like you do. However I feel like your view will change the longer you still around here.

Trenellm
06-02-2009, 12:54 AM
I never did like to see little girls with fake hair.

sidenote: I always wanted to wear beads at the end of my braids like some of my cousins. My mom wouldn&#39;t let me. She said it was "too fass"

Incidently said counsins all wound up having babies as teenagers :unsure:

~GAN~
06-02-2009, 01:02 AM
<span style="font-family:arial">I don&#39;t agree with it. I think that&#39;s way too young. It seems that&#39;s already starting them out with the misconception that their own hair is not good enough.</span>

Xeph
06-02-2009, 01:05 AM
I feel the way I do about my hair for a lot of reasons. Heck, I feel pretty crappy because I don&#39;t feel "black" enough. I read through all these hair things and I have NO Idea what you guys are talking about.

I&#39;m the kind of person that gets in the shower, washes her hair, gets out "styles" (aka, I do nothing more than pick it out and pat it into place) and go.

I am amazed, impressed, and envious that many of you ladies can take the time to do what you do with your hair. I stick with "shave it all off" or "keep it in braids". The less work, the better.

The "fun" things that I&#39;ve seen some of you ladies do with your hair is far too involved for a "just get it done" type like me. I&#39;ve been burned by relaxers, yeah....but I&#39;ve also been burned by flat irons, curling irons, and everything in between, so I shy away from things that might offer "Natural" straight hair I can "do things with".


I think there is HUGE difference between seeing a four year old girl with a weave vs. a preteen or teenager.[/b]
That brings me to ask another question. What is REALLY considered a weave? I do not consider extensions a weave. I consider something sewn into someone&#39;s head a weave...or some of those crazy (hideous) "Why the heck would you do that?" things that some adults put in.

I&#39;ll probably always maintain that extensions in a four year old aren&#39;t horrible things.

LBellatrix
06-02-2009, 01:09 AM
Fitting in (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,336432,00.html)

Yes, it&#39;s extreme...but is it?

This raising of kids to be mini-adults who are clones of each other and never experience anything bad ever...I don&#39;t understand it. I just don&#39;t.

And no, I DID NOT fit in in my grade school...in fact, I was pretty much an outcast. But somehow I SURVIVED.

Let me get out of this thread before I start cussing...

Xeph
06-02-2009, 01:14 AM
Fitting in (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,336432,00.html)
And no, I DID NOT fit in in my grade school...in fact, I was pretty much an outcast. But somehow I SURVIVED.
[/b]
Well then I&#39;m glad your experience was ok for you. I survived too....but I didn&#39;t thrive, and I certainly didn&#39;t have friends.

star13
06-02-2009, 01:25 AM
Fitting in (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,336432,00.html)

Yes, it&#39;s extreme...but is it?

This raising of kids to be mini-adults who are clones of each other and never experience anything bad ever...I don&#39;t understand it. I just don&#39;t.

And no, I DID NOT fit in in my grade school...in fact, I was pretty much an outcast. But somehow I SURVIVED.

Let me get out of this thread before I start cussing...
[/b]


That story is so sad. I was a loner through alot of elementary school and in middle and high school I only had about 5 good friends. I never concerned myself with fitting in, I liked standing out. Children should be taught to love themselves, and be proud of standing out, not molded to fit in. Your parents and family are the people who are suppose to love you for you. If they are the people trying to "fix" you so you "fit in" all that does is confirm to a child that there is someing wrong with them.

Mojito Chica
06-02-2009, 01:27 AM
I wore braid extentions as a child, the first time being in the second grade, I can understand about it hurting a child&#39;s self esteem, because when I had those Bsl length braids in the second grade I was so happy to have hair like all the white girls, I was swinging it around and everything, I was sad when it was time to take them out. I know my mom didn&#39;t let me get them because she wanted me to feel badly, it was just a style to her, she misguided about hair care in general, and still stuck in her ways now.

I don&#39;t think kids should have full length chrome weaves though, or fake pony tails, or anyover the top nonsense.
[/b]


I really feel you on the bolded part. My mom had me all weaved up from 12 - 19.

In regards to the topic, my kid wouldn&#39;t be getting any added hair unless her hair was too short to braid and I was sending her off to stay with someone else for an extended period of time. I wouldn&#39;t expect someone else to know how to do my child&#39;s hair. Outside of this circumstance, no fake hair.

ETA: LBell that story is all kinds of effed up :angry:

drksista81
06-02-2009, 01:29 AM
Well the old cfc in me would have said as long as it&#39;s just a childs simple style and it&#39;s low maintenance, then I see nothing wrong with it. The new educated natural me feels as though kids shouldn&#39;t wear weave because I want my daughter to be comfortable and love her natural texture first and foremost. Introducing weaves at a young age can be giving them the wrong image.

GalaxyGirl2012
06-02-2009, 01:32 AM
Fitting in (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,336432,00.html)

Yes, it&#39;s extreme...but is it?

This raising of kids to be mini-adults who are clones of each other and never experience anything bad ever...I don&#39;t understand it. I just don&#39;t.

And no, I DID NOT fit in in my grade school...in fact, I was pretty much an outcast. But somehow I SURVIVED.

Let me get out of this thread before I start cussing...
[/b]
what a shame because it&#39;s the parents job to let their kids know that it&#39;s OK to not fit in, but I guess there are tons of parents out there who are also playing the "I,Robot" game

I was definitely not a fitter inner and I&#39;m pretty glad because that experience of having to be comfortable in my own skin has saved me LOTS of problems later in life, problems that I see friends going through at the age at 38. I mean seriously 38 is a long time to go through your life without giving a thought to who you really are because you have other concerns (like back aches, a boss you wanna sock in the face and bunions). it&#39;s better to go through that when someone else is paying your bills :lol:

Cerendipity
06-02-2009, 01:41 AM
i have a big difference between weave and extensions and i draw the line at extensions that are not childlike... but then again I know better

Xeph
06-02-2009, 01:50 AM
i have a big difference between weave and extensions and i draw the line at extensions that are not childlike... but then again I know better
[/b]
And living where I live it could VERY well be that I have never seen "extensions that are not childlike" on a child. I have seen girls with braids all over the place...the ones that were done WELL I could not tell extensions were involved unless I asked. The ones that weren&#39;t done well? Well...I don&#39;t think I need to say anymore

QueenScorpio
06-02-2009, 02:17 AM
I don&#39;t think braids are bad but weave and perms are going overboard. Braids, as long as they are done not too tightly and not super-crazy long can be a quick time saver if the child is going on a school trip or somewhere for a long period of time and won&#39;t have anyone to style thier hair. Anything else is over kill.

Oasis
06-02-2009, 03:04 AM
There is nothing I hate more than seeing a tiny little peanut head girl with 8 lbs of weave swanging in a pony tail behind her or attached to her scalp. They usually love it though. :( I know my little cousin does.

Why do parent do this to such small children?

bhop13
06-02-2009, 04:12 AM
I don&#39;t like fake hair on a child&#39;s head. They are kids...who are they trying to impress with all of that? The eat, sleep and play and should not be that worried about their hair.

As far as fitting in people need to really get over that. Kids need to learn to love who they are and learn to accept others for who they are. People are trying so hard to be different and the fit in at the same time and it really makes no sense.

Xeph
06-02-2009, 06:49 AM
Kids need to learn to love who they are and learn to accept others for who they are.[/b]
Tell that to them when they&#39;re getting older and they&#39;re not getting the same GOOD opportunities as their peers because they don&#39;t stick out the "right" way (which is fitting in).

GalaxyGirl2012
06-02-2009, 07:12 AM
^^ i guess that&#39;s why so many kids are having sex at an earlier age?

anyway i can&#39;t see how someone wearing extension hair at the age of 4 has anything to do with whether or not they get good opportunities later in life. am i missing something, because what your saying would just negate every achievement by black women born before, oh let&#39;s say 1984 because we for darn sure weren&#39;t wearing fake hair at 4 years old

KreativeKoils
06-02-2009, 08:12 AM
In my ideal world where little girls live and grow, there would be no fake hair or CFC, period.

In the world of the educated parent/guardian (which describes my black female friends with kids): No CFC period; fake hair only for fun and only for little girls who understand that fake hair doesn&#39;t mean their real hair is bad.

In the world where most little girls live: Between fake hair and CFC, I&#39;d rather it be fake hair although technically, if done too tightly, it can be just as damaging as CFC. At least the girls&#39; eyes aren&#39;t at risk of being burned (see Tyra show).

With all due respect and I&#39;m trying to hold on to my patience here: Why is there even an argument about this? Is it that hard to teach black girls to love their hair regardless of its texture and length? Or are parents too worried about what other people (family, strangers, potential school bullies) will think?

(deep sigh) It&#39;s a good thing I don&#39;t have kids... :icon_headshake:
[/b]

It&#39;s not often that I find someone I completly agree with, but Ms.Bellatrix, I must say I totally agree with everything you said.
If I had an offspring, and they wanted to see a certain style, and it had some extra hair added, I wouldn&#39;t mind. But for everyday, my kid can have braids, twisties and those plastic bobblies that I had. They&#39;re plenty cute enough.

NeverGiveup
06-02-2009, 11:29 AM
If my daughter wants to add hair to her extensions as a teenager (14 and older)--OK. Before that--NO.

All the hair on her head---what would be the purpose of extensions on her head anyway? Her stretched braids fall to the middle of her back and it&#39;s thick. Kids don&#39;t have to have thick long braids to be beautiful anyway. I think natural looking kids are so beautiful.

The minute there&#39;s a special occassion we&#39;re running to do something FAKE to them. Honestly, I believe that&#39;s where all of our--"nappy hair needs to be fixed to be formal AND to be acceptable in certain situations"--issues come from.

Examples:
1. Wedding
2. Camp
3. Graduation
4. Family vacation
5. Family reunion
6. Performance

Just let them be kids and wear their hair!

I don&#39;t think little girls need all that heavy hair anyway--it&#39;s not healthy. It puts way too much tension on their tender heads.

NeverGiveup
06-02-2009, 11:55 AM
How many Euro or Asian girls have kinky hair like we do?

I&#39;m not going to lie....if I could, I&#39;d have "White girl" or "Asian" hair. It&#39;s long, it&#39;s shiny, and you can do all sorts of things I can&#39;t do with the nap on my head.

What is my point with all this? You should love what you got, sure.....but it&#39;s important to kids to fit in too. And sometimes? Sometimes it&#39;s just NICE to have something different!


My senior year of high school I got microbraid extensions done and I LOVED it. Hurt like a mother, but I LOVED it because my BRAIDS moved like a white girl&#39;s hair. And they were black and shiny like an Asian girl&#39;s hair.

I got complimented on the braids instead of being teased for the "rats nest" on my head.

I think people have too much of a tendency to look down on others that make choices different from their own. It&#39;s fine to disagree, but adding some extensions to a little girl&#39;s hair for volume or evenness isn&#39;t a big deal IMO. As long as she still looks her age, what&#39;s the problem?

[/b]

I am so sorry you suffered so much pain as a child. Your hair was unique and special and beautiful and you didn&#39;t even know it. The fact that you desperately wanted to be like everyone else because you thought what they had was more beautiful is the VERY reason I would have denied you fake hair if I were your mother. It would have been better for me to teach you to love what YOU have on YOUR head even if You&#39;re the only one who has it.

There&#39;s nothing wrong with being different. In fact, in a world where things are often twisted and upside down I view being able to stand for the values that have been instilled in you--even when you are alone--as a strength. The sooner a child learns that it&#39;s OK to be different and it&#39;s right for them to be themselves--the better. Most important is instilling self acceptance in them.

Not judging your mother--she probably did the best she could with what she knew but it&#39;s her job to teach you how very beautiful you are as a child.

Since you&#39;re here--it&#39;s wonderful that you headed in the direction of self acceptance anyway. :wub:

bhop13
06-02-2009, 12:31 PM
Tell that to them when they&#39;re getting older and they&#39;re not getting the same GOOD opportunities as their peers because they don&#39;t stick out the "right" way (which is fitting in).
[/b]

I actually was a kid once and even though I knew a ton of people and was involved in a ton of activities I wasn&#39;t part of that popular crowd. And it sucked because no matter what I did I just didn&#39;t fit in but I did have my own friends and eventually I kept it moving, went on with MY life and got over it. Now I have great friends, great sorors, and a great SO...I&#39;m happy.

So yeah I actually would tell them that. I&#39;d tell them where I&#39;ve been, how people I know that didn&#39;t and did "fit in" turned out and tell them that it does get better. I&#39;d also tell them that the grass is not always greener and they have to do what&#39;s best for them since the GOOD opportunities may not be all that GOOD for them. Everything is not for everybody and you don&#39;t know someone else&#39;s story or what they&#39;ve done to get something so it may not be something you need anyway. You have to trust that whatever it is that you aren&#39;t getting just may not be for you at this time and move on.

I&#39;m only 26 and still have a lot of living to do but stuff like this is something I can definitely speak on.

Loquacious
06-02-2009, 12:58 PM
There&#39;s nothing wrong with being different. In fact, in a world where things are often twisted and upside down I view being able to stand for the values that have been instilled in you--even when you are alone--as a strength. The sooner a child learns that it&#39;s OK to be different and it&#39;s right for them to be themselves--the better. Most important is instilling self acceptance in them.
[/b]

PREACH! And a double Amen to LBell&#39;s posts because I feel like I&#39;m on the verge of cussin too. I dont agree with putting fake hair in little girls hair. Sorry. My mom did my hair just fine with whatever I had on my head. Even when it alllll broke of due to a bad case of ringworm. I wore kufi&#39;s that she crocheted for me for a good 2 or 3 years until my hair grew back in. Afterwards she took very good care of my hair and even when she permed it she didnt perm is bone straight. I didnt have any fake hair added to my hair until I was a teenager and even then I felt weird and fake for wearing it. I went away to summer camp in cornrows, had pretty barrettes for weddings and graduations. There was no occassion that my mother felt the need to use fake hair or be ashamed for what grew out of my head naturally. I dont believe in fake hair on little girls.

Anytime I went to the african braiding spot to get my hair done there was always a little girl sitting in a chair over screaming her head off. Some folks braid too damn tight! and some of us still seem to believe that pain = beauty. I&#39;ve seen lil girls with mircos and no edges, tight cornrows with strained edges. One cousin told me she put micros in her 3 yo daughters hair because she went to school with white girls and wanted her hair to swing like theirs. :unsure: :huh: uhhh yeah...about that. Everything aint about fitting in. We are all made different for a reason and we need to let our kids know that different is just that. Different. Its not better or worse and we all have beauty in our own individual way.

When I was younger I wanted to &#39;fit in&#39; but now that I&#39;m older I want to stand out. I want my daughter (when I have one) to be able to feel good with whatever grows out of her head.

ETA: So if fitting in means subjecting my child to something that is physically unhealthy and/or detrimental to their self esteem (perms, p.resses, hair weaves, braid extensions, skin bleaching, what have you) at what point do you start to educate your kid about whats real and stop trying to make them blend in?

No one ever innovated anything by being afraid to be different ;)

bhop13
06-02-2009, 01:18 PM
No one ever innovated anything by being afraid to be different ;)
[/b]

you better get that said!!!

AutumnBeauty
06-02-2009, 01:52 PM
I have 4 and 5 year olds and one of my girls regularly wears weave. I can tell she has a chemical fire cream that is badly breaking off her edges and nape area because her mom slathers on sulfer 8 and the smell is super strong....almost gagging. She usually wears braids with weave but not typical cornrows, they are like pigtail weaved braids :huh:

Today is their graduation and her mom glued in some weave and curled it. She keeps complaining about it itching and wants me to scratch her hair :unsure:

Hey, it may work for some people...but I would not put glued weave in my child&#39;s hair. Weave in with braids or twists is acceptable.

Blqcoil323
06-02-2009, 01:59 PM
Little girls need to be given the chance to be little girls. It starts with the weave at an early age then when they become teenagers and they want to wear "sexy" clothes (Maury Show).

taniseka
06-02-2009, 02:14 PM
There is nothing I hate more than seeing a tiny little peanut head girl with 8 lbs of weave swanging in a pony tail behind her or attached to her scalp. They usually love it though. :( I know my little cousin does.

Why do parent do this to such small children?
[/b]

You and me both.

1. Because it&#39;s not age appropriate and,
2. Because the weight of the extensions on a small child&#39;s scalp is just as damaging as a CFC.


I know a child doesn&#39;t know any better, but parents should know that not fitting in is not the worse thing in the world. If your kid doesn&#39;t fit the mold, encourage her to make her own. I have been there, and I am just fine. I was the dorkiest looking child with HUGE glasses, snaggletooth, and the only black girl (and person of colour) in my class from grade 3-6. I thank God that my parents raised me with a healthy dose of self-esteem. Shoot, I had them little white girls wanting their hair to look like mine. :lol:

What ever happened to raising your kid to be a leader, not a follower?

mymy
06-02-2009, 03:51 PM
I don&#39;t like seeing weave on children at all. I&#39;d prefer it if no child had weave or extensions of any kind.

I also think it depends on the situation. I don&#39;t have children, but if I did the only circumstance that I would put braid/twist extensions in is if I was sending them to visit someone for an extended period of time and I didn&#39;t trust that my child&#39;s hair would be natural when I got back if I didn&#39;t. That way that person wouldn&#39;t have to touch my child&#39;s head during that time. Braid/twist extensions can be damaging to the hair and hairline and I&#39;m not going to risk their hair like that. I think the only other instance would be if they were going to summer camp (not day camp) and were not capable of caring for their own hair. But those are special circumstances, otherwise I&#39;ll do styles with their own hair.

Xeph
06-02-2009, 06:35 PM
It would have been better for me to teach you to love what YOU have on YOUR head even if You&#39;re the only one who has it.[/b]
but that&#39;s the thing....it would have been better for you.

My mum tried. But even at age 5 I was too smart for my own good "You&#39;re my mother! You HAVE to say I&#39;m pretty!" One obligated person does not overrule 30+ every year.


Not judging your mother--she probably did the best she could with what she knew but it&#39;s her job to teach you how very beautiful you are as a child.[/b]
Actually, she did very well in terms of hair. I&#39;m adopted by a single white woman. I NEVER had "fake hair" until I turned 18 and I decided I wanted extensions put in. She never made me relax my hair, I chose to do it, and when I&#39;d had enough, I got to stop.

When I was little little, she would braid my hair herself (she took the time to learn how to do simple braids), and quickly learned how much grease to use, because at first summer would come around and we would bloody well MELT :lol: *Shudders* I can still feel that goo dripping down my face!

I think my sister and I started getting corn rows (no extensions or anything) at 5 or 6. Our hair was kept in braids so often it was stretched and thus "naturally" straight". We had to drive 2 hours one way down to Milwaukee to get it done....there weren&#39;t any stylists up here in GB that we knew that did corn rows in 1990. That two hour drive and sitting in a chair for another 6 were totally worth it for the *clack clack clack* of those beads, and the week or two of kids wanting to talk to me because I had those uber cool beads in my hair.

I know everybody wants kids to be in the "Love yourself!" camp, and while a great notion, I don&#39;t think it&#39;s unfair to be realistic and admit that it&#39;s not going to happen for every child. Doesn&#39;t mean you don&#39;t keep trying, but fitting in and having friends IS important. Being noticed by your PEERS in good ways IS important. A 6 year old may be singled out by teachers are being extremely gifted in one area or several, but it&#39;s the PEER approval the child is seeking, and you can&#39;t tell me that a child isn&#39;t hurt when they aren&#39;t being accepted for a reason you think is "stupid". It&#39;s certainly not stupid to them.


What ever happened to raising your kid to be a leader, not a follower?[/b]
Some parents try...my mother did. Some parents also have a very hard time accepting that not every child WANTS to be a leader (I know I didn&#39;t, and still don&#39;t).

From Kindergarten until 6th grade, there were a total of 6 black children in my entire school (seven in 5th grade). Three were from my house (myself, my sister, and my brother), and three were from the next block over (also adopted sisters). We were all different ages, and I didn&#39;t get along with any of the girls from the other house.

Jenna was amiable, but we didn&#39;t speak, Mollie was just plain evil, and Emilie was of no interest to me and was my sister&#39;s age.

I do not plan on WEAVE for my wedding, but I do plan on cornrowing my hair and adding some extensions (not a ton) for length. I don&#39;t want a boring old fro in my wedding pictures, and everything else is too radical for me.

And I will maintain that WEAVE for little girls is ridiculous, but as long as extensions are done moderately, and the weight isn&#39;t so heavy the kid feels like she&#39;s going to fall over, and the braids aren&#39;t so tight she feels like black chinese....well, I don&#39;t have a problem with that.

I&#39;m hoping that I&#39;ll either end up with a boy that likes to shave his head, or a little girl with stereotypical wavy hair, because I don&#39;t know how I&#39;ll find a stylist to do it that won&#39;t rip the hair out of her scalp (I can&#39;t even find one for me).

Gorgeouslocs
06-02-2009, 09:57 PM
I think I&#39;m gonna loc my chilluns up?!?!?!? :unsure: :blush: ^_^

chachadiva
06-02-2009, 10:22 PM
I&#39;m not going to lie....if I could, I&#39;d have "White girl" or "Asian" hair. It&#39;s long, it&#39;s shiny, and you can do all sorts of things I can&#39;t do with the nap on my head.

Of course, my world is also "colored" by a lack of "color". I&#39;m adopted by a white woman, I&#39;ve grown up in Green Bay, WI, and the only other black people around when I was growing up were the Packer players. So I&#39;ve always envied the pretty flowing hair of the white girls and Hmong girls in my classes.

They could put their hair in a french braid, or a pony tail, or a bun. They could have bangs or those GORGEOUS Scarlett O&#39;Hara curls and waves.

.....My hair didn&#39;t (and still doesn&#39;t) do a dog gone thing but sit on my head :P

[/b]
:offtop:

Xeph, reading your full post, it sounds like you have more issues than just hair. It sounds like you are not comfortable with your Blackness. Why are you doing natural hair?

Part of going natural is accepting the differences in our hair. Our hair was not meant to have "Scarlett O&#39;Hara" curls. We were meant to have the curls that we have naturally. What&#39;s on your head is just as good as "white girl" hair.

BabySoft
06-02-2009, 10:31 PM
Most times these little girls get these weaves, because the parent or the child want to overcompensate for something. It&#39;s rare that I see a child with long hair or curly hair with a weave.

My sister in law currently has no edges due to her mom overbraiding and perming her hair as a child. When the perm thinned her hair, her mom resorted to adding weave to create thickness which eventually left her bald on the edges!

My kids recently had their graduation and I tell you honestly, I kid you not...there were only 2 little black girls with long hair. That was only because they had a curly grain of hair, I guess. All the other girls had weaves! (micros or twists especially for the event, of course :rolleyes: ) The ones that didn&#39;t have weaves were practically bald! :icon_headshake:

My heart really just sinks whenever I notice this, because I know how it feels to be those little girls. My mother gave me perms when I was young too. I just don&#39;t know what we can do about this, because it&#39;s such a sensitive topic in the black community. <_<

mariajay
06-02-2009, 10:51 PM
How many Euro or Asian girls have kinky hair like we do?

I&#39;m not going to lie....if I could, I&#39;d have "White girl" or "Asian" hair. It&#39;s long, it&#39;s shiny, and you can do all sorts of things I can&#39;t do with the nap on my head.

Of course, my world is also "colored" by a lack of "color". I&#39;m adopted by a white woman, I&#39;ve grown up in Green Bay, WI, and the only other black people around when I was growing up were the Packer players. So I&#39;ve always envied the pretty flowing hair of the white girls and Hmong girls in my classes.

They could put their hair in a french braid, or a pony tail, or a bun. They could have bangs or those GORGEOUS Scarlett O&#39;Hara curls and waves.

.....My hair didn&#39;t (and still doesn&#39;t) do a dog gone thing but sit on my head :P

When I was straightening my hair (and my mother didn&#39;t make me, I WANTED to), it lasted about 7 years, burn after burn after burn. Mostly I did it because I was used to it, but I was always disappointed because it didn&#39;t move like "White girl" hair, and it didn&#39;t shine like "Asian girl" hair.

What is my point with all this? You should love what you got, sure.....but it&#39;s important to kids to fit in too. And sometimes? Sometimes it&#39;s just NICE to have something different!

I had completely natural cornrows as a little girl (5-7) complete with beads. Never a fake hair in there.

My senior year of high school I got microbraid extensions done and I LOVED it. Hurt like a mother, but I LOVED it because my BRAIDS moved like a white girl&#39;s hair. And they were black and shiny like an Asian girl&#39;s hair.

I got complimented on the braids instead of being teased for the "rats nest" on my head.

I think people have too much of a tendency to look down on others that make choices different from their own. It&#39;s fine to disagree, but adding some extensions to a little girl&#39;s hair for volume or evenness isn&#39;t a big deal IMO. As long as she still looks her age, what&#39;s the problem?

My boyfriend is Asian, and lord only knows what kind of hair we&#39;re going to bestow on that poor child, but if it&#39;s a little girl, if it won&#39;t cause her serious harm, I&#39;ll see nothing wrong with trying different things to alter her style (if she asks) so she can feel better about herself or fit in with the other kids.
[/b]


i can understand where you are coming from with your feelings. hopefully you will start to see yourself in a more positive light and learn to embrace and love what makes you different from everyone esle. i learnt to do this from a very young age and it helped me with the negativity i recieved from others during my school years.

Xeph
06-03-2009, 02:30 AM
Xeph, reading your full post, it sounds like you have more issues than just hair. It sounds like you are not comfortable with your Blackness.[/b]
I&#39;m not. Myself and my friends make fun of it all the time. We say Asian people are blacker than I am. In terms of culture, I do not identify with "Black or "African American". I identify with "White"


Why are you doing natural hair?[/b]
Because I got sick of being literally burned. I am not ashamed to admit that if it weren&#39;t for the burning, I would still relax my hair. But now I have what I have and I&#39;m trying to learn to maintain it and keep it from breaking and falling out.

We all go natural for different reasons, and not all of us do it because we love natural hair....I did it because it technically hurts less.

red_980
06-03-2009, 03:16 AM
I&#39;m not. Myself and my friends make fun of it all the time. We say Asian people are blacker than I am. In terms of culture, I do not identify with "Black or "African American". I identify with "White"
Because I got sick of being literally burned. I am not ashamed to admit that if it weren&#39;t for the burning, I would still relax my hair. But now I have what I have and I&#39;m trying to learn to maintain it and keep it from breaking and falling out.

We all go natural for different reasons, and not all of us do it because we love natural hair....I did it because it technically hurts less.
[/b]

Although you don&#39;t embrace your natural hair, this site&#39;s mission is about learning to EMBRACE what hair you have.....that&#39;s why others are asking you about your reasons for wearing your hair nappy. This site more than just a place to get advice on hair products and such....for some people this is ONLY place they get support...



I hope you find what you are looking for....good luck

Goodnight!

Edited: to make sure tone of message is not misconstrued as being mean.

taniseka
06-03-2009, 03:53 AM
I&#39;m not. Myself and my friends make fun of it all the time. We say Asian people are blacker than I am. In terms of culture, I do not identify with "Black or "African American". I identify with "White"
Because I got sick of being literally burned. I am not ashamed to admit that if it weren&#39;t for the burning, I would still relax my hair. But now I have what I have and I&#39;m trying to learn to maintain it and keep it from breaking and falling out.
[/b]

Wow. This is a whole &#39;notha sack of potatoes :unsure: I am not well-equipped to deal with a subject like this. All I will say is who you are is black. You define yourself, not what others say "being black" is. While you may identify more with people who do not look like you, at the end of the day, you are black. You need to find a way to accept and love this fact.

NatureLover
06-03-2009, 03:55 AM
:huh: :unsure:

To Elaborate:


I&#39;m not. Myself and my friends make fun of it all the time. We say Asian people are blacker than I am. In terms of culture, I do not identify with "Black or "African American". I identify with "White"[/b]

You are black/AA how can you identify as white/C?? Black people come in all cultures and interests...but despite all that they are still black. What would you define as white culture??


Because I got sick of being literally burned. I am not ashamed to admit that if it weren&#39;t for the burning, I would still relax my hair. But now I have what I have and I&#39;m trying to learn to maintain it and keep it from breaking and falling out.

We all go natural for different reasons, and not all of us do it because we love natural hair....I did it because it technically hurts less.[/b]

I&#39;m new to posting here but I&#39;m sure the whole point of this site is to learn to love, embrace and celebrate our natural hair.

LuvmiOrLeavemi
06-03-2009, 03:59 AM
I agree with some of the other posters. I honestly DO NOT think its that deep for the child. I think her wanting a weave is not her wanting a whole different head of hair. For her its probably like just playing dress up. I think sometimes we make the mistake of cutting our children off from to many things because of our opionions. The opinions that we were allowed to form, opinions that are necessary. I think this is one of those things that it is important for her to EXPERIENCE what she likes and what she doesnt like as far as her hair is concerned. She has you to take care of the braids so what harm can really be as far as her hair is concerned? Thats just my :2cents:


xoxoxoxo :wub:

Xeph
06-03-2009, 04:06 AM
Indeed love! I read a lot about brainwashing, but how is preventing a child from something teaching anything? Yes, we prevent kids from doing things to keep them safe, but have you ever noticed that they don&#39;t really LEARN until they&#39;ve disobeyed and REALLY learned from experience?


You are black/AA how can you identify as white/C?? Black people come in all cultures and interests...but despite all that they are still black. What would you define as white culture??[/b]
The way I dress, the way I talk, the way I act.....I don&#39;t fit the "black mold" stereotypes or no. Heck...I still know the same amount of black people I did back when I was in elementary school.

I currently work in a gas station....I have other black people ask me why I talk like a white person. :P


I&#39;m new to posting here but I&#39;m sure the whole point of this site is to learn to love, embrace and celebrate our natural hair.[/b]
Indeed. But not everyone comes in here guns a-blazin&#39; eager for change. Some, like me, come out of necessity. Loving my hair may come, it may not....first and foremost all I want currently is to keep it from falling out

NeverGiveup
06-03-2009, 04:39 AM
Xeph? :huh: :unsure: You are continuing to surprise me Girl.

1. Talking like a white person doesn&#39;t make you white. People are still saying people talk white???? <_<
We need to REALLY get pass that. Does that mean you speak proper english or sound like a "Valley girl" <_< It&#39;s time to get over the stereotypes--we come in all shapes, shades, and ways of speaking. We are all STILL Black.


2. Identifying with the white race doesn&#39;t make you white.

Nothing wrong with liking white people--but you can&#39;t let that stop you from knowing and appreciating who YOU are.

Are you sure you don&#39;t identify with Black people at some level--because there are other sites you can gain info on natural hair about but you&#39;re here on NP where we celebrate the nappy AND the Black. I hope you come to recieve it too.

Xeph
06-03-2009, 04:51 AM
Are you sure you don&#39;t identify with Black people at some level[/b]
Relatively....admittedly, NP is the first place that popped up in my Google search (pretty popular place it would seem).


You are continuing to surprise me Girl.[/b]
I do that to people :lol:

Would you believe I am a concert pianist, composer, AND I show dogs? LOL!!


People are still saying people talk white????[/b]
Indeed.


Does that mean you speak proper english or sound like a "Valley girl"[/b]
It means I speak proper English and get annoyed when people call me "boo" or a "sister".

"Why can&#39;t a brotha get some love?"
Because you&#39;re acting like an idiot.
"Dang baby that&#39;s cold."
No, it&#39;s honesty.

The men get mad when they find out that I&#39;m not dating a "brother" either. :icon_eek13:


but you can&#39;t let that stop you from knowing and appreciating who YOU are.[/b]
If I knew that I wouldn&#39;t have so many issues :lol: :blush:

Can you believe all of this partially stems from the hair on my head!?

Believe it or not, I&#39;m feeling moderately better already ^_^

NatureLover
06-03-2009, 05:09 AM
You know Xeph NP will be good for you, you will see for yourself that a lot of us don&#39;t fit the stereotypes of "black people" and are still...black. Being black does not mean you have to sign a contract that asserts how you behave, what you like, how you walk :huh: , how you talk ect...
My sister speaks the Queens English and nobody questions her “blackness” I like a lot of things that are not considered "black" or "female" for that matter but I am still a black woman.

As for how men approach you that’s partly because of stereotyping and location, where I live nobody says “hey boo/sista/whatever” except for one very confused Asian guy...he spoke like a stereotypical black person from the 60’s or something, but that was his issue.

As far as men getting mad that you are not dating a black guy...I know some men do which is stupid but sometimes how we portray something can offend someone. I’ve seen people in IR relationships that, when they see members of their own race, do everything short of dangling their “other-raced” partner/spouse in front of the person of their own race...it becomes a badge of honour, a sort of “look what I’ve got!” flag. Not saying you do this (deliberately?) but I have seen it done.

Xeph
06-03-2009, 05:37 AM
Most people are surprised when I speak because I don&#39;t have the (as my friends like to call it) "blackcent"...the Black Accent (Chicago/Milwaukee).

I have certainly met "black people like me", but unfortunately, the stereotypical thug that wears his pants half way down his backside is more common around here <_<


I’ve seen people in IR relationships that, when they see members of their own race, do everything short of dangling their “other-raced” partner/spouse in front of the person of their own race[/b]
I certainly don&#39;t, but when my boyfriend and I go out, we certainly do get looks (I choose to believe it&#39;s because he&#39;s so damn handsome they can&#39;t help but look xD).


As for how men approach you that’s partly because of stereotyping and location, where I live nobody says “hey boo/sista/whatever” except for one very confused Asian guy[/b]
:lol: :lol: :lol:

AguaCarbonica
06-03-2009, 06:50 AM
Edit: Damn this was long. I had a lot to say, sorry.

Psychologically and sociologically, children are basically sponges for messages of beauty and conformity that they are receiving all the time. Those messages can come from their family, from their school, from television, from the Internet, etc.

It&#39;s a lovely sentiment to believe that when a little girl asks for a weave, she just thinks it&#39;s cool or a nice style and she just wants to fit in with her friends. But the truth is, when little girls ask for extensions it&#39;s usually because they have already been indoctrinated into the long-hair aesthetic. I have heard a lot of women say they are getting weaves for thickness, but I rarely see anyone getting extensions that are anywhere close to the same length as the hair that is growing on their head. Why is this? It&#39;s very obvious why.

Styles do not arise in a vacuum. Styles come from socially enforced definitions of beauty. When we buy our children extensions, we validate those notions of beauty. This is a dangerous thing when said definitions can only be achieved through artificial enhancements.

If we are being TRULY honest with ourselves - and I&#39;m sorry if I touch a nerve - there is no way to ignore that letting children get weaves before they even hit puberty sends the wrong message about what is growing on their head. And the message isn&#39;t even necessarily racial. This is a gender issue. Part of the reason why women are overwhelmingly afflicted by self-esteem issues is that they are taught from a very early age that nothing about them is good enough:

1. Their face must be enhanced by makeup.
2. Their hair must be longer or shinier or bouncier or thicker than it is.
3. Their nails should be dainty, long, and possibly painted
4. Their breasts must be unnaturally voluptuous perky, which is why we have push-up bras made for teenaged girls
5. Despite the discomfort, they should wear the highest heels they can manage
6. If you&#39;re pale, you must tan to be beautiful; if you&#39;re dark you must stay out the sun or attempt skin lightening

From a physical standpoint, all that is really expected of men is good personal hygiene, clothes that generally adhere to the norm for the age group, and a reasonable level of physical fitness.

I agree with whoever said they don&#39;t understand how this is an argument. Little girls do not need fake things to be pretty, and they really don&#39;t even need fake things to be accepted!

And speaking of acceptance, I have not met a single person whose mom had any clue how to do their natural hair as a child who felt they weren&#39;t accepted because they didn&#39;t have good hair or weaves. If we can take our child to the salon to sit for 6 hours so that they can get microbraids, why not bantu knots, twist outs, braid outs without extensions, roller sets (is it really that high maintenance to have a child&#39;s hair rolled once professionally and then to roll it nightly? Doubtful)? I have ALWAYS thought that a set of well-groomed and even afro-puffs looked very cute on a young girl. Why not even extensions the length of the girl&#39;s hair? (Because I had braids as a kid, and I have very fine hair, and I know how much volume braids suck away).

I just don&#39;t buy the acceptance argument. I really don&#39;t. Few people are adventurous enough to wear their own natural hair, but I stand firmly by my belief that most of the hostility towards seeing it on other girls is either paranoia, or a lack of commitment to do beautiful natural hairstyles, rather than sending a girl to school with her hair all over her head.
5.

Xeph
06-03-2009, 07:19 AM
I just don&#39;t buy the acceptance argument.[/b]
And that&#39;s fine...I&#39;ve lived it, so I disagree.


From a physical standpoint, all that is really expected of men is good personal hygiene, clothes that generally adhere to the norm for the age group, and a reasonable level of physical fitness.[/b]
Now THAT I can agree with. Curse them :P

AguaCarbonica
06-03-2009, 07:38 AM
And that&#39;s fine...I&#39;ve lived it, so I disagree.

Now THAT I can agree with. Curse them :P
[/b]

I wasn&#39;t clear with my words but I don&#39;t disagree with your anecdotal experience. I just disagree with using it as a rationale to justify across the board. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. People don&#39;t even wait to see how their children will fare in school before rushing off to the hair salon to fake them up. If more parents took this issue seriously instead of dismissing it as just another style, we wouldn&#39;t have to worry that our girls wouldn&#39;t be accepted without extensions.

Also, I didn&#39;t read all your posts carefully but you seem to have had issues with acceptance in a white community. Most black children in the United States go to schools that are still segregated which means that even if everyone is weaved up, they all have the same thing underneath the extensions. I recognize that having short afro-textured hair could be potentially traumatizing where a child already has some serious racial identity issues. But in the black community, the major obstacle in the way of children growing up with healthy hair ideals seems to be parents in communities teaching them all from a young age to fix what they were born with.

NeverGiveup
06-03-2009, 10:31 AM
Relatively....admittedly, NP is the first place that popped up in my Google search (pretty popular place it would seem).
I do that to people :lol:

Would you believe I am a concert pianist, composer, AND I show dogs? LOL!!


Indeed.
It means I speak proper English and get annoyed when people call me "boo" or a "sister".

"Why can&#39;t a brotha get some love?"
Because you&#39;re acting like an idiot.
"Dang baby that&#39;s cold."
No, it&#39;s honesty.

The men get mad when they find out that I&#39;m not dating a "brother" either. :icon_eek13:
If I knew that I wouldn&#39;t have so many issues :lol: :blush:

Can you believe all of this partially stems from the hair on my head!?

Believe it or not, I&#39;m feeling moderately better already ^_^
[/b]

I like you Xeph. I like how you handle yourself here. Welcome to NP. Hope you stay a long while.

LBellatrix
06-03-2009, 01:14 PM
Okay, I know I was going to stay out of this thread and I don&#39;t want to take this too far to the left but:

Xeph, the more of your posts I read, the more I&#39;m beginning to see a similarity between you and some of the black and biracial undergrads I taught while in graduate school here in Iowa, where I&#39;ve been living for four years next month.

The majority of my students came from little towns...in fact, my co-worker told me that 70% of Iowa towns are small towns (1000 people or less). There are black and biracial students who grew up in these towns being either "the only" or one of a very few. One of them told me how people assumed she was adopted since she was the only child of color in the family (she was biracial); one of my white female students had a little black sister her parents adopted (and in fact I referred her to NP when she asked for help on natural hair care).

In many (not all) cases, these kids have a very limited, one-dimensional view of what "blackness" is...and it doesn&#39;t help when they encounter black kids from Chicago, Milwaukee, the Quad Cities, etc. who tell them that, for varying reasons, they&#39;re not "black" enough.

Your comment about Chicago/Milwaukee really struck me, since I lived in the Chicago area for many years prior to moving to Iowa. Right now in my town the white natives use "people from Chicago" as code for "black people"...and in their minds "black people" are people who exemplify this narrow definition of "blackness" which is, by and large, negative. Setting aside the fact that America in general prefers to push this narrative of blacks as opposed to that of, say, the Obamas, or of my family: I&#39;m seeing the kind of impact that "Chicago" has on, to paraphrase Sarah Palin, the "real" Midwest...and it&#39;s very interesting to say the least.

Xeph, you seem like an intelligent person, which is why I&#39;m writing this. And I know you only came here for help with your hair, but you&#39;ll see that we&#39;re a lot more than just hair. :) I think you&#39;ll get what I mean when I say that you can consider NP to be one entree into the true diversity of "blackness." One example: You may not know this, but Deecoily, the American-born founder of this site, has spent the last few years being "the original black cowgirl" out in Australia.

But NP is limited. Your real education exists in the real world, ALL of the world, where black people are doing lots of different things. Our stories are SO much bigger, SO much more complex, and SO much more diverse than what the standard narrative presents. I ask that you keep an open mind.

anabwi
06-03-2009, 02:31 PM
Hallelujah !!!

Xeph
06-03-2009, 04:11 PM
People don&#39;t even wait to see how their children will fare in school before rushing off to the hair salon to fake them up.[/b]
THAT is certainly true! Ugh >.<

I would like to reiterate that my mother NEVER took me to salons to shirk her duty to my hair, nor did I ever have extensions put in when I was little. It was all my natural hair.

She ended up taking Maggie and I to Milwaukee because she was afraid she was ruining our hair, and wanted people that knew what they were doing handling it. A h.ot comb has touched my head all of ONCE in my almost 24 years of life...never again let me tell you!

And LBellatrix, thanks for the post ^_^ You&#39;re very well spoken, and what you say makes a lot of sense. I know that when people here say Obama is black, they mean his skin, but by and large the way he acts = white.

I think Michelle is quite an inspiring black woman, and I actually got to hear her speak at my college campus. It is a Catholic campus and tends to swing to the right....she sucked a TON of students to the left xD LOL!

She&#39;s very well spoken. Eloquent and precise while maintaining the "I&#39;m just like you" position...and having you BELIEVE it. To most people, that is not what black is. I&#39;m hoping that my view and the view of others on what "black" is, can change with two representatives of our race like the Obamas


I like you Xeph. I like how you handle yourself here. Welcome to NP. Hope you stay a long while.[/b]
Thank you :)

chachadiva
06-03-2009, 04:35 PM
And LBellatrix, thanks for the post ^_^ You&#39;re very well spoken, and what you say makes a lot of sense. I know that when people here say Obama is black, they mean his skin, but by and large the way he acts = white.
[/b]

Xeph, you seem to have a fundamentally flawed paradigm when it comes to race. Otherwise, you would not have made the above statement.

It seems that you live by the following equations:

Black = bad, ignorant, ghetto, backward, etc.

White = good, intellegent, cultured, etc.

Obama does NOT act white. He acts like a human being. He just happens to be Black. Yes, he is bi-racial, but do not believe that his "white" part is what is causing his success.

Do you live in the real world? There are a lot of ignorant white people just as there are a lot of intelligent, educated Black people.

STRANDed
06-03-2009, 05:49 PM
THAT is certainly true! Ugh >.<

And LBellatrix, thanks for the post ^_^ You&#39;re very well spoken, and what you say makes a lot of sense. I know that when people here say Obama is black, they mean his skin, but by and large the way he acts = white.

I think Michelle is quite an inspiring black woman, and I actually got to hear her speak at my college campus. It is a Catholic campus and tends to swing to the right....she sucked a TON of students to the left xD LOL!

She&#39;s very well spoken. Eloquent and precise while maintaining the "I&#39;m just like you" position...and having you BELIEVE it. To most people, that is not what black is. I&#39;m hoping that my view and the view of others on what "black" is, can change with two representatives of our race like the Obamas
Thank you :)
[/b]

Xeph, where are you from? I mean for the Obamas to be the first example of sophisticated, well-spoken black people you&#39;ve seen in your entire life??? Either you were sheltered, or just joined Nappturality to start mess. Please step away from this site if you&#39;re seeking attention :bolt: If not, why would you just jump into an online community you know nothing about? I mean, I would at least browse a site to see if I&#39;m interested in joining. I mean, I don&#39;t blame you for having the ideas you have about black people, but if you have recognized that your ideas are narrow-minded, why would you expose them on a site dedicated to uplifting the black culture? Not buying it at all.

NatureLover
06-03-2009, 06:41 PM
I have certainly met "black people like me", but unfortunately, the stereotypical thug that wears his pants half way down his backside is more common around here <_< [/b]

I think that right there is very telling...if negative-steryotypical-black is most of what you see it will be what you equate as black. Just like those who grew up seeing nappy hair as "the worst type of hair" ...hopefully this site will show you that we are not defined by those in your area/the media.

Maybe because montreal is so big and diverse but I&#39;ve seen people of all colours do the "baggy-trousers are about to fall-thing" the guys (and girls) I know who do that consider themselves "hip hop" not "black" they dress like that based on a music genre (like those who dress Emo, Punk, Goth ect) not a race.


Obama acts white[/b]

He doesn&#39;t, there is no such thing as acting "white" anymore than acting "black". If there is then please tell me what it is because I still don&#39;t understand what acting "white/black" means.

mariajay
06-03-2009, 06:46 PM
sometimes things are thrown into the mix just to provoke some kind of reaction.i think that&#39;s what&#39;s happening here.

Xeph
06-03-2009, 07:31 PM
i think that&#39;s what&#39;s happening here.
Just because someone isn&#39;t following the same mindset of everyone else doesn&#39;t mean there&#39;s pot stirring going on.


I think that right there is very telling...if negative-steryotypical-black is most of what you see it will be what you equate as black.
This is indeed very true.


Maybe because montreal is so big and diverse but I&#39;ve seen people of all colours do the "baggy-trousers are about to fall-thing"
I envy the diversity of Montreal (I really do). And I too have seen the latter, but again, around here it&#39;s usually the kids (of all races) that have come from inner city Chicago and Milwaukee that dress this way...and they don&#39;t leave a very good impression. And admittedly the "thuggy black kid" is more noticeable than the "thuggy white kid".


Xeph, where are you from?
Green Bay, WI, as I have mentioned numerous times in this thread.

Growing up here, the only other African Americans in town at the time when I was little were the Packer players and their children, and their children certainly didn&#39;t go to the same schools I did.


I mean, I would at least browse a site to see if I&#39;m interested in joining.
I did. I just wanted answers to my questions.


but if you have recognized that your ideas are narrow-minded, why would you expose them on a site dedicated to uplifting the black culture?
Tell me what black culture REALLY is and my ideas will likely change. They&#39;re narrow minded now because I&#39;ve grown up in a place where black culture = the thug down the street that listens to Snoop Dog, wears his pants around his ankles, and can&#39;t speak proper English for the life of him.

My mother even perpetuated those stereotypes (not consciously, but it is so). Hip hop and rap music was (is) bad, baggy clothes were/are bad....she didn&#39;t even let us buy certain brands of clothing because it was "bad and gang related".

I don&#39;t doubt that there are successful African American people here in Green Bay....but I&#39;ve not met them.

I hear about them, but I don&#39;t see them. This is not a particularly diverse community. Are we getting more diverse? Yes. But it is primarily hispanic families and more hmong families coming in. Very few black families.

I&#39;m going to Lancaster, TX for the summer. Hopefully things will be better there.

STRANDed
06-03-2009, 07:37 PM
Growing up here, the only other African Americans in town at the time when I was little were the Packer players and their children, and their children certainly didn&#39;t go to the same schools I did.
I did. I just wanted answers to my questions.
Tell me what black culture REALLY is and my ideas will likely change. They&#39;re narrow minded now because I&#39;ve grown up in a place where black culture = the thug down the street that listens to Snoop Dog, wears his pants around his ankles, and can&#39;t speak proper English for the life of him.

My mother even perpetuated those stereotypes (not consciously, but it is so). Hip hop and rap music was (is) bad, baggy clothes were/are bad....she didn&#39;t even let us buy certain brands of clothing because it was "bad and gang related".

I don&#39;t doubt that there are successful African American people here in Green Bay....but I&#39;ve not met them.

I hear about them, but I don&#39;t see them. This is not a particularly diverse community. Are we getting more diverse? Yes. But it is primarily hispanic families and more hmong families coming in. Very few black families.

I&#39;m going to Lancaster, TX for the summer. Hopefully things will be better there.
[/b]

I don&#39;t care why your views are narrowminded. I&#39;m trying to understand your reasoning to publicizing them on a site clearly devoted to bashing those type of stereotypes. And I won&#39;t tell you what black culture is. Our culture was ripped from us over 200 years ago.

Xeph
06-03-2009, 07:50 PM
I&#39;m trying to understand your reasoning to publicizing them on a site clearly devoted to bashing those type of stereotypes.[/b]
If you don&#39;t care why, then you clearly don&#39;t care about the reasoning.


And I won&#39;t tell you what black culture is. Our culture was ripped from us over 200 years ago.[/b]
That&#39;s a contradictory statement. The first implies that either you don&#39;t know yourself/don&#39;t want to give me an inkling of what I should be looking for, and the second implies we don&#39;t have one at all.

As much as some of you would like to believe I want to cause trouble, it&#39;s far from the truth. I actually hate confrontation...but I&#39;m not afraid to defend myself, nor am I afraid to disagree with the views of others (such as the original post in this thread...I don&#39;t mind extensions...weaves are another matter).

Heck, after some recommendations on this site in the last couple of days, I went out and bought some new shampoo and what not in the hopes of attempting comb coils ^_^

We&#39;ll see how that goes.... :unsure:

canarsiechik88
06-03-2009, 08:01 PM
Tell me what black culture REALLY is and my ideas will likely change. They&#39;re narrow minded now because I&#39;ve grown up in a place where black culture = the thug down the street that listens to Snoop Dog, wears his pants around his ankles, and can&#39;t speak proper English for the life of him. [/b]

Just curious, not trying to start things, You identify yourself as white, what is WHITE CULTURE in your opinion

Trenellm
06-03-2009, 08:12 PM
I listen to rock, country, Indie music
I went to a predom white school and and class officer and graduated with honors
I speak standard English
I don&#39;t respond to "shorty"
My husband is white
I attend theatre on a regular basis
I like to believe I am a good person

I am Black.

Newsflash , Blacks, just like everyone else, have great diversity. There are "red neck" white folks. Do I think ALL whites are like that? no.

Xeph I really hope that you are a pot stirring b/c if you really believe the things you are saying, that level of self-hate is very sad.

Xeph
06-03-2009, 08:19 PM
I can&#39;t really tell you.

It is more likely I identify with white....because I&#39;m always called white.

You would not believe how many times I&#39;ve been told "Jackie, you are the whitest black person I know!"

Big Jim told me that JJ (Who is white) was blacker than I am. Why? Because JJ enjoys hip hop and rap music and I don&#39;t care for it at all.

I&#39;m the white girl that plays classical piano and has her nose stuck in a book.

I&#39;ve experienced POSITIVE black culture...but not consistently, and it has almost never been with black people. Gospel music seems to be something that people label as "inherently black". Love Gospel music. Love listening to it, writing it, playing it.

I&#39;m often told that my musical sense is the only black thing about me >.<

I love African hand drumming too (I&#39;m a percussionist as well as a pianist), and even took lessons for awhile. Had an absolute BLAST.

I went to a Music Educators convention in Madison, WI, and there was a hand drumming seminar. I found it interesting that even at a convention with hundreds of people, in that seminar of 30 or so, I was one of only three black people in attendance.

You know what was cool though? The speaker was from South Africa :D Oh man was he ever a blast! Taught us some awesome stuff.

That said, most often I feel like I have no identity at all.

I am not stereotypically black enough to be "black" to people, but my skin makes me obviously not white. Mostly the only identity I have that is absolute is "human".


if you really believe the things you are saying, that level of self-hate is very sad.[/b]
I get that a lot. Believe it or not, this is better than 6 years ago.

It&#39;s a constant struggle to figure out who and what I really am, if any of the mess I wrote makes any sense at all.

Trenellm
06-03-2009, 08:27 PM
You would not believe how many times I&#39;ve been told "Jackie, you are the whitest black person I know!"

[/b]

Stop looking at that as a compliment and more as a narrow minded insult. You are letting ignorance shape how you view your own race.

TO BE SMART NOT MEAN YOUR ARE NOT BLACK.

There is nothing non-black about you, dude. You are a black female who likes to do such and such. Do you check off "white" on forms?

bhop13
06-03-2009, 08:36 PM
You should not be defining yourself based off of what other people say, ESPECIALLY if they have a narrow view of what is or isn&#39;t Black or White. I do a lot of things that are stereotypically Black because that&#39;s just how I grew up but I also have no problem stepping outside the box and trying something new.

We can only blame others and society for who we are for so long...at some point we have to make the decision to just be who we are and be ok with that.





Stop looking at that as a compliment and more as a narrow minded insult. You are letting ignorance shape how you view your own race.

TO BE SMART NOT MEAN YOUR ARE NOT BLACK.

There is nothing non-black about you, dude. You are a black female who likes to do such and such. Do you check off "white" on forms?
[/b]

ITA.

Kayin
06-03-2009, 08:43 PM
Just because someone isn&#39;t following the same mindset of everyone else doesn&#39;t mean there&#39;s pot stirring going on.
This is indeed very true.
I envy the diversity of Montreal (I really do). And I too have seen the latter, but again, around here it&#39;s usually the kids (of all races) that have come from inner city Chicago and Milwaukee that dress this way...and they don&#39;t leave a very good impression. And admittedly the "thuggy black kid" is more noticeable than the "thuggy white kid".
Green Bay, WI, as I have mentioned numerous times in this thread.

Growing up here, the only other African Americans in town at the time when I was little were the Packer players and their children, and their children certainly didn&#39;t go to the same schools I did.
I did. I just wanted answers to my questions.
Tell me what black culture REALLY is and my ideas will likely change. They&#39;re narrow minded now because I&#39;ve grown up in a place where black culture = the thug down the street that listens to Snoop Dog, wears his pants around his ankles, and can&#39;t speak proper English for the life of him.

My mother even perpetuated those stereotypes (not consciously, but it is so). Hip hop and rap music was (is) bad, baggy clothes were/are bad....she didn&#39;t even let us buy certain brands of clothing because it was "bad and gang related".

I don&#39;t doubt that there are successful African American people here in Green Bay....but I&#39;ve not met them.

I hear about them, but I don&#39;t see them. This is not a particularly diverse community. Are we getting more diverse? Yes. But it is primarily hispanic families and more hmong families coming in. Very few black families.

I&#39;m going to Lancaster, TX for the summer. Hopefully things will be better there.
[/b]

Perhaps I&#39;m not understanding you but what are you defending yourself against?The idea that all black people aren&#39;t the same? I don&#39;t see that this is a "view" or a "mindset". It seems a reasonable enough proposition that the millions of people who identify as black (not being clones) can&#39;t all share the same ideas, interests, speech patterns etc even if they emerge from a common cultural background. And if that is a reasonable proposition then why is that something that you would want argue against?
You admittedly didn&#39;t grow up in a diverse community and even now don&#39;t know/associate with many black people. You appear to admit that is a limitation. But even while recognising this as a limitation you wish to defend the views that this limitation has shaped? I think the notion that black people are a particular way needs to go. You don&#39;t require an understanding of "black culture" (however one wants to define that) to do so, just a recognition that black people like every other type of people are individuals and the definition of blackness should be large enough to include us all.

AguaCarbonica
06-03-2009, 09:30 PM
Xeph,

Frankly I think you are desperate to defend your narrow conceptions of blackness because if you don&#39;t, you will have to come to terms with the implications your race has for your relationships and identity.

I used to be kind of like you though not so severe. I felt complimented when people told me that same thing- that I was the whitest black person they knew- but deep down it stung every time because I knew that those people had pegged me for a moron and a class illiterate based off my skin color, and had been pleasantly surprised.

But just like you find it difficult to broaden your definitions of blackness, your "uniqueness" has hardly impacted their racism and stereotyping. Instead, they view you as an anomaly, much in the way people view idiot savantes.

I know it sounds harsh but you will be much happier when you learn to embrace everything that makes up Xeph, including blackness, without feeling that your "white" acculturation is making up for inherent deficiencies. Unfortunately you will eventually learn the hard way that no matter how properly you speak and no matter how white they joke you are, you are still black to the people you associate with. If they didn&#39;t see your color, they wouldn&#39;t make those jokes. And rather than seeing you as white, they clearly see you as adopting cultural and intellectual practices that they claim as their own, not shared.

I almost hate to jump on the bandwagon but you are starting to seem willful about being ignorant.

For the record, I myself just graduated from a top 3 university, and was one of few graduates to be hired. On top of that my job program accepted less than 10 percent of its 40,000 applicants. I speak the queen&#39;s English, prefer electronic music and have recommendations lined up for a PhD program.

So why don&#39;t I identify as white? Because I know my own history and because as a sociologist, I am acutely aware that the opportunities I seized have been stolen from millions of girls like me by the very "culture" you embrace. Luckily my parents were able to overcome insurmountable odds. That doesn&#39;t make them exceptional blacks, just exceptional people.

Xeph
06-03-2009, 09:34 PM
Perhaps I&#39;m not understanding you but what are you defending yourself against?The idea that all black people aren&#39;t the same?
I do suppose I am...I&#39;m not sure (I&#39;ve gotten quite confused myself in ths whole thread).


Stop looking at that as a compliment and more as a narrow minded insult.
I&#39;ve never looked at it as a compliment or an insult...I&#39;ve just kind of laughed at it as the "Stereotype FAIL!" kind of thing.


Do you check off "white" on forms?
I actually leave that question blank :) I will also say that this made me LOL and it felt good ^_^


But even while recognising this as a limitation you wish to defend the views that this limitation has shaped?
When you put it that way (a way I understand), no. Although it would certainly be easier to "fit" somewhere if we weren&#39;t defined by race or culture, if that makes sense?


just a recognition that black people like every other type of people are individuals and the definition of blackness should be large enough to include us all.
That is a good point. That said, then there shouldn&#39;t need to be a definition of blackness at all, correct (or is that what you were actually saying)?

Maybe the real issue is the need to identify as SOMETHING but not knowing HOW as opposed to WHAT?


Unfortunately you will eventually learn the hard way that no matter how properly you speak and no matter how white they joke you are, you are still black to the people you associate with.
I&#39;ve known that since I was little little.

You&#39;ve brought up some good points. I always thought being black WAS something....that&#39;s always been what it&#39;s presented as (the same as "Being Asian" or "Being White").

To think that it&#39;s this strange sort of "nothing but something" makes more sense (not that I make any xD).

canarsiechik88
06-03-2009, 09:51 PM
I can&#39;t really tell you. It is more likely I identify with white....because I&#39;m always called white. You would not believe how many times I&#39;ve been told "Jackie, you are the whitest black person I know!"
I&#39;m the white girl that plays classical piano and has her nose stuck in a book. I&#39;m often told that my musical sense is the only black thing about me >.< [/b]

Just cause people refer to you as a COLOR doesn&#39;t mean you can identify with it. And If you can&#39;t describe what you personally identify yourself with, don&#39;t claim it! You are black from the roots of your hair to the tip of your toes! Yes you are not negatively stereotyped black, neither am I, and neither are 99% of the women here. If we were, all of us would have p.erm hair!

Hadasah
06-03-2009, 10:52 PM
WHAAAAAAAAAAAT?
My entire life, I have known people who were not "stereotypically" black, and were mad BECAUSE they were called white/bougie/oreo, and KNOW that how we speak, the music we listen to, and our interests do not in ANY way take away from our "blackness". I have never met a black person who actually identified as white because they LIKE TO READ AND PLAY PIANO.
Xeph, I might be missing the satire, so excuse me if I did. But are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that your INTERESTS take away the fact that you are of African descent? And being black means following stereotypes?
I&#39;m sorry for the caps, but this is the first person I met who actually suggested she was not black because of her interests.

Xeph
06-03-2009, 11:12 PM
But are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that your INTERESTS take away the fact that you are of African descent?[/b]
Something like that....it&#39;s what I&#39;ve been taught by my community. It&#39;s hard to see it another way when you&#39;ve never seen it another way I guess.

They call me white not because I play the piano....but because I play classical piano :-/ If I were a jazz pianist, I&#39;d fit into what they believe black is.

After reading here, I officially have no idea what black is aside from skin color.

ALso, random question....why has everything suddenly gone to thread view instead of showing each individual post?

AguaCarbonica
06-03-2009, 11:31 PM
Something like that....it&#39;s what I&#39;ve been taught by my community. It&#39;s hard to see it another way when you&#39;ve never seen it another way I guess.

They call me white not because I play the piano....but because I play classical piano :-/ If I were a jazz pianist, I&#39;d fit into what they believe black is.

After reading here, I officially have no idea what black really is aside from skin color.
[/b]

Wow...I&#39;m starting to feel like you are just not real at all. Especially since jazz music, while originating in the black music tradition was co-opted fairly early by whites anyway.

Where do you get this stuff? Why do you keep defending it? It&#39;s obvious you know it&#39;s absurd. This type of cluelessness may have b een acceptable pre-internet but you don&#39;t have to look far to find evidence that your stereotypes are ridiculous.

It&#39;s like you know you don&#39;t make sense but when someone criticizes the piano stereotype you still come back with "but it&#39;s CLASSICAL." Insane.

Hadasah
06-03-2009, 11:33 PM
I understand that other people say that to you. People have been saying that to me my entire life (or, since the 7th grade. I can&#39;t remember). I don&#39;t believe them, though. Listening to rock and watching anime doesn&#39;t make my skin lighter or my hair straighter. I just got upset because when you say that you are not black because of your personality and cultural background, you&#39;re saying that I, Obama, and other black people who don&#39;t follow stereotypes are not black either, despite any BS we have to face because we are black.
If people started telling you that you were an elephant because you like to eat peanuts, would you believe them and use that as your defense when people said that you weren&#39;t?
OP, I&#39;m so sorry for getting off topic.

I&#39;m getting outta here.

kmacbaje
06-03-2009, 11:35 PM
Something like that....it&#39;s what I&#39;ve been taught by my community. It&#39;s hard to see it another way when you&#39;ve never seen it another way I guess.

They call me white not because I play the piano....but because I play classical piano :-/ If I were a jazz pianist, I&#39;d fit into what they believe black is.

After reading here, I officially have no idea what black really is aside from skin color.
[/b]

I usually don&#39;t get into "deep" threads but "being Black" is what you make it. As you can see there are numerous women here who don&#39;t do "stereotypically" black things. Better yet-black people don&#39;t just come from America-there&#39;s black people from the various countries in Africa, the West Indies etc so with all of these far flung places and different cultures there is no one thing that Black really is aside from skin color. Therefore if you are black in skin color, your interests are black interests. Don&#39;t let "they" project white and black onto you.

namaste
kmac

star13
06-04-2009, 12:08 AM
If you come in here after page 3 you&#39;ll have no idea whatt the orginal topic was.


The thing is that this conversation can go so far beyond just &#39;precieved&#39; blackness and &#39;precieved&#39; whiteness. This issue crosses over into every race. There really is no such thing as race anyway. There are just billions of people with no idea of who they are individually, which is why people cling to &#39;race&#39; so tightly. They think that it makes them who they are, but it doesn&#39;t. However, because of this people will never be able to come together as one.

I identify with Xeph a little bit, when I was growing up other kids would heckle me for doing things they didn&#39;t think was black. Why are you listening to rock music? Why do you talk like that? (Properly)

I hate the rock thing too because rock music was born in &#39;black&#39; culture, it wasn&#39;t until much later that it took on the racial divide that it has now and the same goes for jazz, even country is just a &#39;white&#39; counterpart of the blues. Everyone should be required to take a music history class, so the whole rock belongs to white people and rap, hip hop and rhythm and blues belong to black people thing can go away. Everyone should make and love the music they enjoy regardless of who they are.

Also, Xeph, you basically have two choices. You can forget all of this and continue to be the way you are, sucking up every " your the whitest black person I know" insult like it&#39;s compliment, because it&#39;s not it means that because you&#39;re black and they didn&#39;t think you could act the way you do. Or you can crawl out of your box and learn what it really means to be you, not what it means to black or white, because to be black means you have brown skin, to be white means you have peach skin, but that&#39;s all it should ever mean. Step out of your comfort zone and see the world.

I look forward to the day, even though it won&#39;t be in my lifetime, when people will only see other people.

Xeph
06-04-2009, 12:10 AM
It&#39;s like you know you don&#39;t make sense but when someone criticizes the piano stereotype you still come back with "but it&#39;s CLASSICAL." Insane.
[/b]
And if you read what I wrote at all, I said that it doesn&#39;t fit what THEY think black is. I said I don&#39;t even know anymore.

If you think I&#39;m still defending it, that&#39;s your issue


Therefore if you are black in skin color, your interests are black interests. [/b]
That&#39;s an interesting point :)

I guess there isn&#39;t any essence of black, or white, or asian or hispanic, we just all are what we are.


Everyone should be required to take a music history class,[/b]
I&#39;m a music major, and we have to take music history....but it&#39;s all based in classical music. To get anything beyond that you have to take evolution of jazz or world music, which are optional.

LuvmiOrLeavemi
06-04-2009, 02:55 AM
If you come in here after page 3 you&#39;ll have no idea whatt the orginal topic was.
The thing is that this conversation can go so far beyond just &#39;precieved&#39; blackness and &#39;precieved&#39; whiteness. This issue crosses over into every race. There really is no such thing as race anyway. There are just billions of people with no idea of who they are individually, which is why people cling to &#39;race&#39; so tightly. They think that it makes them who they are, but it doesn&#39;t. However, because of this people will never be able to come together as one.

I identify with Xeph a little bit, when I was growing up other kids would heckle me for doing things they didn&#39;t think was black. Why are you listening to rock music? Why do you talk like that? (Properly)

I hate the rock thing too because rock music was born in &#39;black&#39; culture, it wasn&#39;t until much later that it took on the racial divide that it has now and the same goes for jazz, even country is just a &#39;white&#39; counterpart of the blues. Everyone should be required to take a music history class, so the whole rock belongs to white people and rap, hip hop and rhythm and blues belong to black people thing can go away. Everyone should make and love the music they enjoy regardless of who they are.

Also, Xeph, you basically have two choices. You can forget all of this and continue to be the way you are, sucking up every " your the whitest black person I know" insult like it&#39;s compliment, because it&#39;s not it means that because you&#39;re black and they didn&#39;t think you could act the way you do. Or you can crawl out of your box and learn what it really means to be you, not what it means to black or white, because to be black means you have brown skin, to be white means you have peach skin, but that&#39;s all it should ever mean. Step out of your comfort zone and see the world.

I look forward to the day, even though it won&#39;t be in my lifetime, when people will only see other people.
[/b]



YES! This thread seems hijacked :rolleyes: and how can u not know what it means to be black when u can constantly keep dismissing very specific activities and speech "typically" outside the realm of black behavior as proof of ur white-washed lifestyle. ;) U seem like u have a pretty well-formed opinion already:huh:

bhop13
06-04-2009, 03:09 AM
I just can&#39;t......

NatureLover
06-04-2009, 03:20 AM
I&#39;m against extensions for kids, I plan on adoptiong so when I have children I won&#39;t let them have any added hair until they are in their late teens (or 18 for that matter), no perm no fake hair...if their hair can&#39;t/doesn&#39;t do something I&#39;ll do a different style.

gemini22
06-04-2009, 03:46 AM
:offtop: i&#39;ve read this thread from beginning to end. i tried not to blink because i didnt want to miss anything. i don&#39;t talk "black", i don&#39;t wear "urban wear" name brand clothes, I HATE to be called boo,shorty,ma or any ignorant name they have for women. i listen to anthing that sounds good, i can&#39;t stand rap/hip hop music and i think some r&b is foolishness. i never looked at jazz as being a "black thing". you have some white people who can&#39;t stand classical music.i live in south florida and i see white boys wearing their pants down their *** and black boys doing the "college prep" look. my family is from jamaica, so i hear the Queens English.when i was younger i would get slapped in my mouth for talking "slang". i grew hearing other black people saying i talked "white". wtf? no i talk proper with a jamaican accent. i went to a private school and the majority were white kids. i was there for 3 years and in each year there was a max of 3 black kids. Xeph,i think you need alot more exposure to the world around from experience instead of what your mother has taught you and what your friends have said. i hope that your trip to Texas is a good one and i hope you go with your mind more open then what it is now. if you ever get a chance, you should try and visit somewhere like florida,new york, somewhere that has different colours and cultures. maybe even outside of the country would be a good eye opener for you. maybe instead of trying to explain your black and white views(especially with your lack of experience with "black culture"), you should sit back and see how different cultures and different shades of black people are on this site. :fan:

as far as the original post, i don&#39;t think it&#39;s appropiate for a child to get weave/extensions(same difference). i have a 5 year old daughter and i wouldn&#39;t put anything like that in her hair. every week i wash and braid her hair, and it looks good. it&#39;s not long at all but it works. she has come to me and told me she wants to be white and wants white hair. but i had to cut that idea short. i had to explain to her she&#39;s beautiful no matter what and she doesn&#39;t have to be white to be pretty. her pretty brown skin glows! i&#39;m glad that i chopped of my hair, now she can see that long flowing hair is not important or nescessary.

i had to edit to say,i didn&#39;t know obama acted white?! :dunno:

Xeph
06-04-2009, 04:40 AM
Xeph,i think you need alot more exposure to the world around from experience instead of what your mother has taught you and what your friends have said.[/b]
Certainly agreed there


if you ever get a chance, you should try and visit somewhere like florida,new york, somewhere that has different colours and cultures. [/b]
I&#39;ve actually been to both and didn&#39;t care for either, lol. Wasn&#39;t culture though...I hated the Florida heat and New York was too "busy" for me.

The boyfriend (soon to be fiance :D) is going into the Marines....I think I&#39;ll travel all sorts of places and see some interesting things ^_^

gemini22
06-04-2009, 01:38 PM
Certainly agreed there
I&#39;ve actually been to both and didn&#39;t care for either, lol. Wasn&#39;t culture though...I hated the Florida heat and New York was too "busy" for me.

The boyfriend (soon to be fiance :D) is going into the Marines....I think I&#39;ll travel all sorts of places and see some interesting things ^_^
[/b]


what wasn&#39;t culture? :doh the heat in florida and the "busy" lifestyle in ny has nothing to do with how much of a melting pot both places are.we have dominicans,jamaicans,americans,haitians,ricans,cub ans,africans,mexicans,jewish,muslims,christians,re d necks(the kkk have a rally every year right down the street from me)... i could go on.and that&#39;s just south florida,from west palm beach and down. i hope that when you do go to the different places, you&#39;ll have an open mind about the CULTURE(the food,the people,the clothes,the religion,their way of life) as well as your surroundings. :brickwall:

bhop13
06-04-2009, 02:19 PM
what wasn&#39;t culture? :doh the heat in florida and the "busy" lifestyle in ny has nothing to do with how much of a melting pot both places are.we have dominicans,jamaicans,americans,haitians,ricans,cub ans,africans,mexicans,jewish,muslims,christians,re d necks(the kkk have a rally every year right down the street from me)... i could go on.and that&#39;s just south florida,from west palm beach and down. i hope that when you do go to the different places, you&#39;ll have an open mind about the CULTURE(the food,the people,the clothes,the religion,their way of life) as well as your surroundings. :brickwall:
[/b]


I think she was saying that the reason she didn&#39;t like NY and Florida has nothing to do with culture but with the fact that NY is busy and Florida is hot.

NappyCurls
06-04-2009, 02:24 PM
I don&#39;t post often, but I wanted to post this.

Xeph, some things that you say, I may not complety agree on, BUT I do understand where you are coming from. I understand that you have not really been exposed to a lot of black people, so your perception may be a little limited. I also understand that if the only type of black people you have interacted with acted out sterotypically, you can&#39;t help think maybe the sterotype is true, BUT trust and believe, those are just that, stereotypes. On top of that, you were raised by a white woman and in a white community, so your exposure is limited to what a black person may act like. How you act doesn&#39;t make you black. The only thing that makes you black is your skin color. There are people of all races that like the same stuff, do the same stuff, talk the same way, etc. These type of things doesn&#39;t define a specific race. You seem to be trying to broaden your perceptions by reaching out on here and trying to understand what is black culture, if there is such a thing. I would like to say that you are handling yourself very well on this board, and I don&#39;t think you are trying to stir trouble, but just trying to reach out and find answers, but to really get to know how other black people act, you are going to have to actively expose yourself to other black people and form some type of friendship with them. To really know how a person acts, no matter the race, you are going to have to hang around them for some time to see how they really are. I have never "fitted" the black stereotype. I was never "black" enough for my friends. People always talked about how proper I talk. I listen to all types of music and my favorite band is Maroon 5, but I also like some of the music I let my kids listen to sometimes. I played the violen for years. I like classical music. My husband is always teasing me, not in a bad way, of how I don&#39;t understand "street" slang and how proper I talk. I think you get my point. :) I hope my rambling makes any sense.

Anyway back on topic. I have a daughter who is 9. I keep her hair braided and twisted, but I always use her OWN hair. My mom is always telling me to get it braided with weave, but I tell her that my daughter and I are happy with the way I style her hair for now. She is very comfortable in her "nappturalness". She always want to wear her hair out in an afro or puff, and sometimes I do, but not often, because her hair tangles easily and her hair has thrived in protective styling. Her hair stretched is BSL. Now, when she gets older, maybe when in middle school, I may allow her to wear braid extensions sometimes because I know she is comfortable in her own skin, but I also know that as she grows up, she&#39;s not going to want mommy to keep braiding her hair in kiddie styles. I&#39;ll deal with that when it comes though. There still will not be any cfc or weaves though. Kids do ask her why her hair is still natural or why it looks so short because of shrinkage, but my daughter is strong minded and it doesn&#39;t affect her self esteem. She tells them that she likes her hair as it is and that you DON&#39;T have to have straight hair down your back to be beautiful. She KNOWS she is beautiful the way she is. All this to say is, if you teach your children that even though they may not be in the "norm", they are still beautiful and unique, then not wearing weave/extensions in their hair is not going to effect their self esteem.

Ok. My post is too long. Enough said. :rolleyes:

Serbbral
06-04-2009, 02:47 PM
^^ i guess that&#39;s why so many kids are having sex at an earlier age?

anyway i can&#39;t see how someone wearing extension hair at the age of 4 has anything to do with whether or not they get good opportunities later in life. am i missing something, because what your saying would just negate every achievement by black women born before, oh let&#39;s say 1984 because we for darn sure weren&#39;t wearing fake hair at 4 years old
[/b]

Sho you right!




There is nothing I hate more than seeing a tiny little peanut head girl with 8 lbs of weave swanging in a pony tail behind her or attached to her scalp. They usually love it though. :( I know my little cousin does.

Why do parent do this to such small children?
[/b]

I hate it too! Yes, why?

simplypoetic08@yahoo.com
06-04-2009, 03:57 PM
<div align="center">Personally I think some things are just a little too grown for kids. Weave braids, I can see, but weave ponytails and all that jazz.... I don&#39;t like. That&#39;s just me though.</div>

ms_rite
06-04-2009, 04:10 PM
Back to the topic - I hate, hate, hate to see young girls with extensions. I don&#39;t understand why its considered ok to do this, it may be better than relaxing but only just.

Synthetic hair can dry the hair out which can lead to extreme breakage and thin the hair, if the braids are not put in correctly they can eat the edges away. More than likely if extensions are being added, it is likely that the health of the child&#39;s hair is being neglected, so the hair is not being washed or moisturized frequently which can also lead to breakage and scalp issues.

Not to mention the whole aesthetic/euro standard of beauty thing and just like those who has CFC from a young age, this child will not know how to style or look after her own hair because it always in extensions.

My mother managed with what I had, she braided and took care of my hair very well thank you very much! My mother was a natural advocate, and took care of not one natural head, but four including her own. And because of this love care and attention, I could braid and style natural hair from the age of 11. I say, let children be children...

Kayin
06-04-2009, 04:16 PM
Back to the topic - I hate, hate, hate to see young girls with extensions. I don&#39;t understand why its considered ok to do this, it may be better than relaxing but only just.

Synthetic hair can dry the hair out which can lead to extreme breakage and thin the hair, if the braids are not put in correctly they can eat the edges away. More than likely if extensions are being added, it is likely that the health of the child&#39;s hair is being neglected, so the hair is not being washed or moisturized frequently which can also lead to breakage and scalp issues.

Not to mention the whole aesthetic/euro standard of beauty thing and just like those who has CFC from a young age, this child will not know how to style or look after her own hair because it always in extensions.

My mother managed with what I had, she braided and took care of my hair very well thank you very much! My mother was a natural advocate, and took care of not one natural head, but four including her own. And because of this love care and attention, I could braid and style natural hair from the age of 11. I say, let children be children...
[/b]


ITA. I saw a little girl a couple months ago, 4 or 5 years old, with extensions to mid back and an eroding hairline. I wondered if the mother couldn&#39;t see what was happening. Why not just braid the child&#39;s own hair?? Even if she had put in the extensions for convenience why leave them in when it becomes apparent that they were causing damage??

Xeph
06-04-2009, 04:31 PM
How does synthetic hair dry out the natural hair?


I think she was saying that the reason she didn&#39;t like NY and Florida has nothing to do with culture but with the fact that NY is busy and Florida is hot.[/b]
Exactly ^_^

I can&#39;t really recall the culture of Florida (it&#39;s been awhile). While NY (NYC) was too busy for me, there were things I really liked about it :) The hidden away pizza parlors being one of them...and street performers ^_^

Miss Concrete Jungle
06-04-2009, 04:33 PM
In regards to the topic, my kid wouldn&#39;t be getting any added hair unless her hair was too short to braid and I was sending her off to stay with someone else for an extended period of time. I wouldn&#39;t expect someone else to know how to do my child&#39;s hair. Outside of this circumstance, no fake hair..
[/b]
What I quoted in bold was the only reason I ever got braided extensions, so I never saw an issue with getting them as long as the style was age approriate. I just had simple box braids. I used to stay with my father out of town during the summer and there was no one around to take care of my hair, but this was the only time I had weave of any kind. During the year my own hair was kept in braids with beads or pressed for special occasions, until I started going to the salon and had a CFC. I don&#39;t think braids had any effect on me whatsoever in terms of my self-image and esteem, but that&#39;s me. Only thing I look back on with negativity was having synthetic hair put in my braids, but once my mom realized that was harmful she made sure it was human hair.



i have a big difference between weave and extensions and i draw the line at extensions that are not childlike... but then again I know better
[/b] ITA..

AguaCarbonica
06-04-2009, 06:39 PM
ITA. I saw a little girl a couple months ago, 4 or 5 years old, with extensions to mid back and an eroding hairline. I wondered if the mother couldn&#39;t see what was happening. Why not just braid the child&#39;s own hair?? Even if she had put in the extensions for convenience why leave them in when it becomes apparent that they were causing damage??
[/b]

I think it&#39;s kind of like overweight and obesity. People make bad decisions every day that negatively impact their health. Day by day they don&#39;t notice anything. Week to week the may notice negative outcomes, like having to maneuver just a little bit more to get into those jeans. But that little bit of discomfort doesn&#39;t seem like quite a big deal, because hey, they still fit right? And then one day you are being lifted out of your house through the roof to be weighed at a zoo because the hospital doesn&#39;t have appropriate equipment for your size...

That&#39;s how most black women care for their hair. A little bit of breakage, no big deal. A gradually receding hairline? Can&#39;t worry about that right now because I need to get a man and my hair canNOT be jacked up. Chunks of hair falling out my scalp? Cover it up. Then one day, you&#39;re truly bald-headed.

mstrina911
06-04-2009, 08:23 PM
LOL @ my thread being hijacked. POST A NEW THREAD!! (j/k)Nonetheless, I am glad to see that some are in agreement with my stance regarding small children and fake hair.

My girls are 2 and 5 and they idolize my neice. My neice is gorgeous. She&#39;s like a chocolate Bratz doll. She is exactly what I don&#39;t want my girls to be like as far as how she perceives herself. She feels inadequate w/o a long weave, the hottest clothes and makeup. I wore weaves a lot in my life, but to me it was an accessory like a hot bag or bracelet. I&#39;d get it short, long, curly and afro-like. I soon learned that for some, fake hair is a necessity. Some people won&#39;t leave the door unless they have theirs in. I say no so that my girls will know that they are beautiful, just as they are.

monazoom
06-05-2009, 11:22 AM
my mother always had my hair braided when I was little , and my cousin always added in fake hair , not for length because it was already long , but for thickness, I always had the baddest braids in town. I always loved it because I looked like every other little kid. I never had beads and wanted those so bad so I could hear the click clack sound.

Thats the one thing I loved growing up, sitting between my cousin legs getting an intricate braid design on my hair. I never felt "fake" though. The hair added in was never longer than my own hair either.
[/b]

ITA - 100%

Miss Concrete Jungle
06-05-2009, 01:36 PM
LOL @ my thread being hijacked. POST A NEW THREAD!! (j/k)Nonetheless, I am glad to see that some are in agreement with my stance regarding small children and fake hair.

My girls are 2 and 5 and they idolize my neice. My neice is gorgeous. She&#39;s like a chocolate Bratz doll. She is exactly what I don&#39;t want my girls to be like as far as how she perceives herself. She feels inadequate w/o a long weave, the hottest clothes and makeup. I wore weaves a lot in my life, but to me it was an accessory like a hot bag or bracelet. I&#39;d get it short, long, curly and afro-like. I soon learned that for some, fake hair is a necessity. Some people won&#39;t leave the door unless they have theirs in. I say no so that my girls will know that they are beautiful, just as they are.
[/b]
Not that I didn&#39;t get it before, but when you explained it like ^^^ I really got it. Plus I must&#39;ve skipped the fact that you also have a 2 and 5 yr. old. I&#39;d never put braided extensions on child&#39;s head at that age, so your stance makes that much more sense to me :yes: