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plc2003
05-02-2003, 01:44 AM
I don't know if any of you have seen this before, but take a look at it:

http://www.ffrf.org/nontracts/women.html

what do you think about it?

satriela
05-02-2003, 04:44 AM
WOW!!!! Quite thought provoking list!! Thanks for the link, I enjoyed it!

winnie
05-03-2003, 01:21 AM
I think this basically sums up why I don't subscribe to any one organized religion. I discovered a long time ago that I didn't need some man in order to have a healthy relationship with the Creator. If everyone practiced kindness as a religion, the world would be a much better place.

deecoily
05-03-2003, 03:23 AM
I have seen this before - it's something very powerful but often ignored.

Medusa Negrita
05-04-2003, 06:23 AM
I am....very confused.
Whenever I come to peace within myself
and my spirituality
I guess I will feel less so.
Not there yet
Just confused.

KinkyChris
05-04-2003, 12:58 PM
Yes, Interesting.

I will actually go and read those scriptures... people seem to forget that the Bible was written in an age when women had no rights...The problem I have with interpretations of the Scriptures is that everything is still taken so LITERALLY hundreds of years later.

nappturallymeRG
05-04-2003, 02:51 PM
WOW!
Thanks for the link. It is very interesting and is also a reason why I am not a member of a church.

LBellatrix
05-04-2003, 05:13 PM
A long time ago I decided that I didn't want to be a part of any religion that said I was a lower class of human because I wasn't born with a penis.

Thanks for the link.

Medusa Negrita
05-04-2003, 06:33 PM
Yes, Interesting.

I will actually go and read those scriptures... people seem to forget that the Bible was written in an age when women had no rights...The problem I have with interpretations of the Scriptures is that everything is still taken so LITERALLY hundreds of years later.

Why interesting? This is not new, I think people just want to overlook it.
I was a apart of the church for a while under a WOMAN pastor and she still came across the same way when she mention any scriptures in the bible. I got the same impression. I thought it funny that the church speaks AGAINST females heading the church.....that is, if they were to take that part literally. I noticed a lot of female pastors conviently overlook that part of which that does not concern them. Yes, she was able to overlook the part that women can't be head of churches, should worship in silence, should follow men in the church......but she could not stop in the impression that bible does speak against women. I have actually been too two churches like that, the latest one just this past easter Sunday. Guest pastor talkin about how talking aout God (yes God, not jesus) was a male...as is his response when people (often female) tell him no, that God can be male and/or female and he started to get into the same line of defense you often here in regards to the gender of God and Jesus and why.

:? Honestly, there is nothing a Christian and a Muslim can say that will change my mind in regards to bible and Koran speaking out and subjugating women. Many of what was said above are also mentioned in the Koran, and still being TODAY in the middle east to subjugate women as 2nd and shall we say 3rd class citizens.

But if you are secure in your faith and it works for you and sends you on the right path of righteousness and to do well and good and to respect yourself, people and to show compassion and gives wisdom and allows you to grow and learn, then I respect that most of all, regardless of your religion. I realize that if indeed you are that strong, there is nothing I can say to deter you from that path of your RELIGION and how you WORSHIP, and I definitely do not want to deter you from the ABOVE (the long first sentence of this paragraph) because that's what EVERYONE should strive for, irregardless of your religion.

I have been blessed thru christian hands, enlightened by Muslim one. I often feel funny accepting prayers and blessing from Christians when I know I have a problem with their RELIGION, which I thought translanted into having a problem with their faith. FAITH is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen (is that right?). Everyone hopes for something, and everyone's 'religion' has seen evidence of things unseen, things of 'God' and perhaps things not of 'God', things of bad and things of good, evidence of the supernatural, evidence of a higher power that we may attribute these things too. I think FAITH translates into your belief in the higher being of GOD, the allhigh, the almighty, and regardless of our religion, EVERYONE believes in GOD in some facet (those who practice a belief in God), whether she is female or male has elements of both, whether she works alone or thru prophets, ordinary people, or thru the people who 'rule' the elements of earth. Ultimately the goal of everyone religion is too send you on the right path of righteousness and to do well and good and to respect yourself, people and to show compassion and gives wisdom and allows you to grow and learn?

Sorry so long. This is more meant for me to understand and try to figure out thru the art of writing than to be of any assistance to anyone else.

Shalom, peace, alaikum, amen, and all that other good stuff :wink:

tjolims
05-05-2003, 01:59 AM
Speaking of overlooking things...if you want to use isolated scripture like that, the Bible is just as oppressive towards men...heck, towards everybody...

strawwberryz
05-05-2003, 03:39 AM
I am very wary of people/groups who pick contexts out of the bible without the full picture. If you are looking for something you will find it. In every religion I am sure you can make a 'list' of snippets that elude to hostility towards women, people of color (thus the justification of slavery), children, men, any group of people.

Being a Young, Working, Christian, African Woman, everything and every group has at one point discriminated against a part of who I am. So now I am supposed to quit my job, refuse any religion, hate all men, kill white people, disown Africaness... :roll:

deecoily
05-05-2003, 04:03 AM
Please point me in the direction of a Christian discussion group (on the internet) which addresses these verses and the historical subjugatin of women. I would be interested to read from their standpoint what all this means to Christian women, or if it concerns them at all.

Dee
:)

QueenAT
05-05-2003, 04:23 AM
That article was totally one-sided, and totally incorrect. They approached those verses in the Bible with a negative point of view, and if they had looked at what the Bible truly says about women, that article would not have been written. In a moment, I'll explain why, but before I do, I want to mention that I am a Christian, meaning that I profess Christ and trust Him as my Savior. I just wanted to clear up that not all Christians believe that way. Now on to the article.

1. That Exodus scripture that talked about not suffering a witch to live. That verse doens't mean that a woman shouldn't live. It simply means that ANY person, a male or female, should not be allowed to live because witchcraft and the other things that witches practice are sin in God's sight. So, that verse is just to execute righteus judgment on people who sin against God through witchraft, and again that included men. In Acts 13:6-11, the Apostle Paul blinded Simon the Sorcerer as punishment for his wickedness.

2. The verses in 1 Timothy that say that women should learn in silence and not speak. Those verses do not apply to women of God today. Paul wrote that, because at the time, there were women speaking in the church who were preaching and didn't know what they were talking about. They were not anointed of God to preach, so Paul instructed them just to learn so they wouldn't mislead or confuse the followers. Again, that verse doesn't imply to women of God today. If God has anointed them to preach, then He will allow them to.

3. The article seemed to say that the Bible implies that for a women to bear a child is a curse, or a burden, or a shame. The Bible doesn't say that at all. In the Old Testament, women saw not being able to have children as a curse. That's why Samuel's mother Hannah cried out to God to bless her with a child. 1 Samuel 1:5-11.
Also, the Bible says- Lo, children are an heritage of the Lord; and the fruit of the womb is his reward. Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate. (Psalm 127:3-5)

4. Women have been greatly used of God throughout the Bible.
Examples are:
1. Zipporah, Moses' wife. When God was about to kill Moses for not circumcising his son, she circumicised the child, and therefore Moses' life was spared. (Exodus 4:20-26)
2.Deborah. She was a judge for God's people and defeated their enemies. She was also a prophetess. (Judges 4:3)
3. Ruth. She was a great woman of God.
4. Esther. God used her to spare the Jewish people when king Aheserus was planning to kill every Jew.
5. Proverbs 31 depicts a woman that is honored and virtuous, showing that God and Christians do not scorn women.
6. Anna. She was a prophetess, and when Jesus was only eight days old, she identified Him as the Messiah. God gave her a special revelation, that he only gave to one other person, Simeon.
7. Mary. That article implies that her birthing Jesus was shameful, because she had to be purified at the temple. That was a ritual, or a law that God had set in place, that women must be purified after having a child. It was meant to shame women. (Leviticus 12:2) If anything, it was a great blessing for Mary to have birthed the Savior of the World.
8. Luke 8:2-3 shows a few women who helped Jesus in his ministry.
9. Luke 23:55, 56 and Luke 24:1-10, shows women who anointed the body of Jesus after His death. These women did not desert Jesus as all of His disciples did. They wept at the cross, and finally carried the message of His resurrection to His disciples.
10. Phebe. Paul commended this woman of God in Romans 16:1. Also, look at Romans 18:3, and Acts 18:2,24-26 and it speaks of Priscilla, She was a woman who served God, and along with her husband taught a man named Apollos.
That article completely falls apart when you look at Galatians 3:28, which reads: There is neither Jew nor Greek, their is neither bond nor free, there is neither MALE nor FEMALE for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

tran68
05-05-2003, 04:27 PM
In the 30 years that I've been attending Christian churches there have ALWAYS been women teaching, Pastoring, definitely ministering and everything else that the men do. I've always heard tell of certain scriptures being used to subjugate women but the women at the churches I've attended (and the men too) believe that kind of thinking is archaic and has NO place in the church.

I did attend a white church in Kansas many years ago and these women had hair down to their butts and beyond (cause it was a sin to cut it) and that particularly preacher did preach on those same scriptures in the link....my Mom took us by the hand and we walked out...she then told my Aunt that she was in a "cult" and we were kinda asked to leave her house a little earlier than planned because her beliefs and my Mom's clashed, and that was the end of that!

jacura
05-05-2003, 06:18 PM
alot of this was discussed in the spirituality forum on the old board....where is spirituality forum on the old board??

nappturallymeRG
05-05-2003, 08:55 PM
In the 30 years that I've been attending Christian churches there have ALWAYS been women teaching, Pastoring, definitely ministering and everything else that the men do. I've always heard tell of certain scriptures being used to subjugate women but the women at the churches I've attended (and the men too) believe that kind of thinking is archaic and has NO place in the church.

I did attend a white church in Kansas many years ago and these women had hair down to their butts and beyond (cause it was a sin to cut it) and that particularly preacher did preach on those same scriptures in the link....my Mom took us by the hand and we walked out...she then told my Aunt that she was in a "cult" and we were kinda asked to leave her house a little earlier than planned because her beliefs and my Mom's clashed, and that was the end of that!

:shock: :shock:

tjolims
05-05-2003, 10:00 PM
Please point me in the direction of a Christian discussion group (on the internet) which addresses these verses and the historical subjugatin of women. I would be interested to read from their standpoint what all this means to Christian women, or if it concerns them at all.

Dee
:)

This isn't all that specific, but take a look at some of the archived writings on http://www.jesusradicals.com and it's associated forums. Like I said, there's not a whole lot of specific discussion on the topic(it comes up from time to time), but it's a very political board, and about a quarter of the poster are highly educated young women. Of course, about a quarter of the posters are dickhead young men, too, which means that things get interesting from time to time. :D One of the women who posts regularly on the board actually was just arrested for protesting the whole Iraqu debacle, and has just begun to share her experiences with that from a scriptural perspective. On the whole, it's an example of what women are doing in Christianity in a real world context. Plus, there are quite a few articles by prominent female theologists on the site, if you want to take a look...

winnie
05-05-2003, 10:32 PM
A long time ago I decided that I didn't want to be a part of any religion that said I was a lower class of human because I wasn't born with a penis.

Thanks for the link.

LOL. My grandmother used to say this too, whenever we asked her why she didn't go to church on Sundays.

(she only went occasionally for social purposes)

Slim_E
05-09-2003, 04:57 AM
Originally posted by deecoily@May 4 2003, 11:03 PM
Please point me in the direction of a Christian discussion group (on the internet) which addresses these verses and the historical subjugatin of women. I would be interested to read from their standpoint what all this means to Christian women, or if it concerns them at all.

Dee
:)
:D

DivineSpirals
05-23-2003, 09:42 PM
Hm, upon first glance it looks like female oppression.

However, if I look at it from a different angle it appears that the Bible is teaching that women have a lot of moral responsibility...which on the flip side appears to be very offensive to men (men can't be blamed for doing wrong because they are naturally "stupid"????) :)

Twistednkinky
08-17-2003, 06:01 AM
Originally posted by QueenAT@May 4 2003, 10:23 PM
That article was totally one-sided, and totally incorrect. They approached those verses in the Bible with a negative point of view, and if they had looked at what the Bible truly says about women, that article would not have been written. In a moment, I'll explain why, but before I do, I want to mention that I am a Christian, meaning that I profess Christ and trust Him as my Savior. I just wanted to clear up that not all Christians believe that way. Now on to the article.

1. That Exodus scripture that talked about not suffering a witch to live. That verse doens't mean that a woman shouldn't live. It simply means that ANY person, a male or female, should not be allowed to live because witchcraft and the other things that witches practice are sin in God's sight. So, that verse is just to execute righteus judgment on people who sin against God through witchraft, and again that included men. In Acts 13:6-11, the Apostle Paul blinded Simon the Sorcerer as punishment for his wickedness.

2. The verses in 1 Timothy that say that women should learn in silence and not speak. Those verses do not apply to women of God today. Paul wrote that, because at the time, there were women speaking in the church who were preaching and didn't know what they were talking about. They were not anointed of God to preach, so Paul instructed them just to learn so they wouldn't mislead or confuse the followers. Again, that verse doesn't imply to women of God today. If God has anointed them to preach, then He will allow them to.

3. The article seemed to say that the Bible implies that for a women to bear a child is a curse, or a burden, or a shame. The Bible doesn't say that at all. In the Old Testament, women saw not being able to have children as a curse. That's why Samuel's mother Hannah cried out to God to bless her with a child. 1 Samuel 1:5-11.
Also, the Bible says- Lo, children are an heritage of the Lord; and the fruit of the womb is his reward. Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate. (Psalm 127:3-5)

4. Women have been greatly used of God throughout the Bible.
Examples are:
1. Zipporah, Moses' wife. When God was about to kill Moses for not circumcising his son, she circumicised the child, and therefore Moses' life was spared. (Exodus 4:20-26)
2.Deborah. She was a judge for God's people and defeated their enemies. She was also a prophetess. (Judges 4:3)
3. Ruth. She was a great woman of God.
4. Esther. God used her to spare the Jewish people when king Aheserus was planning to kill every Jew.
5. Proverbs 31 depicts a woman that is honored and virtuous, showing that God and Christians do not scorn women.
6. Anna. She was a prophetess, and when Jesus was only eight days old, she identified Him as the Messiah. God gave her a special revelation, that he only gave to one other person, Simeon.
7. Mary. That article implies that her birthing Jesus was shameful, because she had to be purified at the temple. That was a ritual, or a law that God had set in place, that women must be purified after having a child. It was meant to shame women. (Leviticus 12:2) If anything, it was a great blessing for Mary to have birthed the Savior of the World.
8. Luke 8:2-3 shows a few women who helped Jesus in his ministry.
9. Luke 23:55, 56 and Luke 24:1-10, shows women who anointed the body of Jesus after His death. These women did not desert Jesus as all of His disciples did. They wept at the cross, and finally carried the message of His resurrection to His disciples.
10. Phebe. Paul commended this woman of God in Romans 16:1. Also, look at Romans 18:3, and Acts 18:2,24-26 and it speaks of Priscilla, She was a woman who served God, and along with her husband taught a man named Apollos.
That article completely falls apart when you look at Galatians 3:28, which reads: There is neither Jew nor Greek, their is neither bond nor free, there is neither MALE nor FEMALE for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Well said.....very succint! :thumbsup: And ITA! :pumpheart:

NaturalSerenitee
08-19-2003, 09:49 AM
Thanks for the link -- this site explains exactly why I am not christian today. I refuse to be a part of or support anything that has my subjugation written into its core belief system.