What constitutes self-hatred?

[sonce]

Okay ladies, I'm a bit confused right now so I'd like to know what y'all think of this.

I have a friend, beautiful dark chocolate sister with absolutely breathtaking natural hair. She is so down for our people and really puts her money where her mouth is, i.e. driving extra miles to patronize black-owned businesses, taking time out of her busy schedule to tutor/mentor inner-city girls, creating a support group for pregnant teen black girls etc etc...in short, she's pro-black in action, not just rhetoric... :wub:

However, she only dates white men and says she has never ever in her life been attracted to a non-white man. Her first love in kindergarten even a white boy and more specifically, her type has always been guys with very blond or red hair, with blue or green eyes, although she'll date any attractive man that matches her standards...as long as he's white :huh:

Now see, normally I categorize anyone who won't date their own race as self-hating period because although I see nothing wrong with dating those of other races, I think it's just weird to not want your own. But she is so afrocentric and so openly comfortable with herself as a beautiful black woman that I just can't put her in the self-hate category.

And what makes it even more confusing is that she has a great relationship with her dad/brother and black guy friends, AND I've never heard her ragging on our men, so it's not like she avoids/hates black men.

Now, I know ultimately it's none of my business who she dates, and she's my girl no matter what because I've known her for years and years :wub: . But it just bugs me somehow to know that she's not attracted to any black man (maybe I'm bothered because the brothers on our campus think she is one fine sister and it hurts me to see them hurt by her ignoring them as dating partners).

So, would y'all call her self-hating or think she has problems with her blackness? or is it possible for her to not have problems with her blackness and still not be attracted to men that look just like her?? :dunno:


Oh, and PLEASE, PLEASE moderators don't put this in the culture section!!! I wanna be able to participate in my own thread and I'm not premium....

[sonce]

*bump

[meagan22]

Originally posted by sonce@Jan 16 2005, 01:07 AM
I have a friend, beautiful dark chocolate sister with absolutely breathtaking natural hair. She is so down for our people and really puts her money where her mouth is, i.e. driving extra miles to patronize black-owned businesses, taking time out of her busy schedule to tutor/mentor inner-city girls, creating a support group for pregnant teen black girls etc etc...in short, she's pro-black in action, not just rhetoric... :wub: . . . . . . . . Now see, normally I categorize anyone who won't date their own race as self-hating period because although I see nothing wrong with dating those of other races, I think it's just weird to not want your own. But she is so afrocentric and so openly comfortable with herself as a beautiful black woman that I just can't put her in the self-hate category. . . . So, would y'all call her self-hating or think she has problems with her blackness? or is it possible for her to not have problems with her blackness and still not be attracted to men that look just like her?? :dunno:
Oh, and PLEASE, PLEASE moderators don't put this in the culture section!!! I wanna be able to participate in my own thread and I'm not premium....

676567

^^ edited for space and personal emphasis.

Afrocentric. You described your friend as being pro-black. That's good, but Afrocentricity is more that merely being pro-Black. There are tons of people who are pro-Black and don't even know the propler definition of Afrocentricity is(and feel inclined to make up their own :rolleyes: ), let alone live an Afrocentric lifestyle. @sonce: do you know they formal definition of Afrocentricity?

Now, as for your friend: I find it odd in her pro-Blackness that she is only attracted to white men. It's not for me to say whether or not she hates herself because I don't know her like you do. But to me it's very odd. :icon_eek13:

And the Culture Forum is open to all members again, so even if it's moved you can still post. :)

[BrittanyanJ]

hmmm....well...I am mostly attracted to white guys, its not a really deep issue because to me hot is hot, no matter what race, but I generally find white guys more physically attractive, personality-wise, there are great guys of all colors...and I am all about Black pride, Black beauty, and everything....so I can relate, from my perspective its probably just a preference. I mean, I'd take Richard Gere over Denzel, to me he looks better. :dunno: maybe I need help....therapy...something...but anyway, if you accept yourself, then that's one thing...does she refuse to date black guys or has it just happened that all the guys she has dated are white??

[Jazitones]

Yup I she is just secure within herself as blackwoman and thats what counts. So what if she doesn't date brothas, she just has a different taste from the norm. :2cents:

[CrazeeDCoil]

I find attractive people in every race. It may be she just hasn't found that particular black man that attracts her yet. So long as she is not saying she will never ever date a black man and not putting all black men down I don't see it as self hate. Strange, but not self hatred.

[sonce]

@meagan--she's ghanaian, and every bit proud, knowledgeable and connected to not only her ghanaian heritage but other african cultures, therefore I call her afrocentric.

@brittanyan, jazitones etc--yea I guess you guys are right, she just has a preference and at least she's not insulting or trying to put brothers down while going after who she wants. She's doesn't have any romantic interest in black men because her taste in men doesn't lean in their direction physically, and she's just really into the caucasian look. So it's really unlikely that she would date a black guy.

[linette411]

Well, I see it differently. I may be the only one that sees it this way but here it goes.

IMO:

I fine it very odd that a woman so into her people the way you explain would not embrace the beauty of a black man. It sounds so contradicting. I also think she is also trying to compensate for dating white men.

Now, you say she is a beautiful dark chocolate sista. I know you’ve known her all your life but I have yet to meet a dark sista that has not experienced some type of prejudice from the black race, especially from young black men. I believe she experienced this during her adolescent years and never bounced back from it. There are many scenarios that could have occurred. Maybe during that time she found refuge in a young white boy that accepted her? Having a relationship with her father, brother and black guy friends now doesn’t matter. It’s what has happened during those crucial impressionable years that in some ways mold us today.

[lovinblack]

great analysis linette,

you are definitley not the only one who sees this differently. If she wants to date white guys that is her choice, however with the OP description......i agree that something is a little amiss.

lb

[ScoobyGurl]

Yeah, I agree with linette and lovinblack, especially since I was a woman who at one time only dated white men.


I know you’ve known her all your life but I have yet to meet a dark sista that has not experienced some type of prejudice from the black race, especially from young black men. I believe she experienced this during her adolescent years and never bounced back from it. There are many scenarios that could have occurred.

As a girl, I never got compliments from guys. I saw light skinned girls get compliments all the time but usually the boys found some way to tease me. In addition, my father completely cut off all ties with me from the time I was 10 until his death with the exception of his wedding. While I had uncles who were very caring and a stepfather who I consider to be my "real" dad, I had major issues with black men to the point that I just didn't want to be with them. I had black men who were friends but I just didn't want to be romantically involved with them b/c I think that romantic relationships are some of the closest relationships a person will ever have and I just felt like black men wouldn't be able to provide what I needed and was looking for in a romantic relationship. After doing some therapy and addressing my issues with black men, I've begun to realize that I need to give black men a chance. Now that I'm focusing more on my identity as a black person I don't have a desire to date anyone but black men. So I guess I find it odd how your friend who is into her culture would still only find white men attractive.

[vinny_46]

Originally posted by sonce@Jan 15 2005, 10:07 PM

However, she only dates white men and says she has never ever in her life been attracted to a non-white man. Her first love in kindergarten even a white boy and more specifically, her type has always been guys with very blond or red hair, with blue or green eyes, although she'll date any attractive man that matches her standards...as long as he's white :huh:



676567


Are you truly sure about that? I mean, has she said that, or are you just assuming that because you've never seen her with a non-white man? :huh:

Well, I'm not bothered by it. If that's her preference, I see no problem with it. :dunno: Hell, some people may only date men with large, um.... :blush: or only men with :smil3f9cfa4a8d9af: Whatever floats your boat. ;)

What I find weird is when other people assume that it's your responsibility to date certain people simply because they may have a similar skintone. :rolleyes:

[chocolategurl17]

I agree with linette, maybe there is something a little more to this than meets the eye that you may not know about her and her past. Regardless I find it strange that she isn't attracted to atleast one black man. That is impossible. It has to be.

[Lokii]

Originally posted by sonce@Jan 17 2005, 05:25 AM
@meagan--she's ghanaian, and every bit proud, knowledgeable and connected to not only her ghanaian heritage but other african cultures, therefore I call her afrocentric.

...

677006


Well without wearing out my fingers typing about colonialism and colonial mentality over something that overall ain't that important (after all who cares who she dates???) i think the fact that she's African explains everything. There are plenty of African women who are proud of their culture, have good relationships with their fathers and brothers but still consider a marriage or relationships with a white guy to be status and a prize -- because a white guy "has things". You might be dirt poor and a white guy can lift you and your family out of poverty. Or you can be middle class or a member of your country's elite and still that affiliation with a white guy is valuable in terms of connections. Furthermore if she is continental african but raised in america there is the whole issue of the aa vs. continental african divide. Yes we all get along together much better now but just about everyone in this forum is old enough to remember how not so long ago this was not the case. We are all products of our environment. So considering the possible influences in her life, the preference for white guys is not surprising.

[chocolategurl17]

Originally posted by laineymo+Jan 17 2005, 04:38 AM-->
How is it impossible? I'm sure there are several people on the board who aren't attracted to at least one white/asian/indian guy.

677482
[/b]

The above may be true, but we are talking about a black woman not being attracted to ANY black men, not black women not being attracted to non black men as ur statement is suggesting. And I think its weird for a black person to not be attracted to atleast a few people from their same race.

<!--QuoteBegin-laineymo@Jan 17 2005, 04:38 AM
I think there are several levels to attraction. Just because she isn&#39;t interested in Black men romantically, doesn&#39;t mean she cannot see the beauty in Black men; after all, I&#39;m sure she can see the beauty in herself (someone who was produced in part by a Black man). But to answer the question, no I don&#39;t think she is suffering from self-hate.

677482


I don&#39;t think this is the pinpointed subject of the OP. She is specifying attraction of the physical kind to black men. She may be able to see the beauty in black men but if she can&#39;t attest to feeling any attraction physically to black men in their totality, something is a little off IMO, which leads me back to my previous inquiry.

If the tables were turned and this was a black man we were talking about I wonder how quick we would be to cross out the option of self-hate. It would definetly rub me the wrong way if it were a black male friend the OP were posting about. This may be due in part because of the discrepancy of black men/women coupling with white women/men, being that black men IR dating is so much higher. But honestly I don&#39;t think the lady is suffering from self-hate necessarily myself. I need more facts. :dunno:

[sonce]

Originally posted by vinny_46@Jan 17 2005, 02:32 AM
Are you truly sure about that? I mean, has she said that, or are you just assuming that because you&#39;ve never seen her with a non-white man? :huh:

Well, I&#39;m not bothered by it. If that&#39;s her preference, I see no problem with it. :dunno: Hell, some people may only date men with large, um.... :blush: or only men with :smil3f9cfa4a8d9af: Whatever floats your boat. ;)

What I find weird is when other people assume that it&#39;s your responsibility to date certain people simply because they may have a similar skintone. :rolleyes:

677385


She hasn&#39;t actually said it in those words, so you&#39;re right, it&#39;s just my perception and those were my words. I don&#39;t think she has a responsibility to find black men attractive, I just find it odd that she doesn&#39;t. Perhaps I feel uncomfortable because she challenges my stereotype of what it is to be pro-black/afrocentric--every other person that meets that criteria in my experience usually dates only black or at least non-black *in addition* to black.

I have an infinite amount of respect for her and she really exudes love for all, including black men. But she hasn&#39;t ever dated a black man even though we can&#39;t go anywhere without brothers coming up to her and I know she&#39;s been asked out by many (even in high school, she was considered one of the most beautiful girls--dark skin and all).

[LuvThosNaps]

I&#39;ve never met anyone who excluded their own race from the dating pool who didn&#39;t have some issues.

Quick Disclaimer(Naturally I haven&#39;t met everyone so she may be one of the unique cases).

All people who I have met that have overall positive views about others of their own race do not exclude their own.

[sonce]

Originally posted by Lokii@Jan 17 2005, 04:36 AM
Well without wearing out my fingers typing about colonialism and colonial mentality over something that overall ain&#39;t that important (after all who cares who she dates???) i think the fact that she&#39;s African explains everything. There are plenty of African women who are proud of their culture, have good relationships with their fathers and brothers but still consider a marriage or relationships with a white guy to be status and a prize -- because a white guy "has things". You might be dirt poor and a white guy can lift you and your family out of poverty. Or you can be middle class or a member of your country&#39;s elite and still that affiliation with a white guy is valuable in terms of connections. Furthermore if she is continental african but raised in america there is the whole issue of the aa vs. continental african divide. Yes we all get along together much better now but just about everyone in this forum is old enough to remember how not so long ago this was not the case. We are all products of our environment. So considering the possible influences in her life, the preference for white guys is not surprising.

677478



I think you&#39;re making many assumptions about africans that I find quite insulting as an african myself. I can see your point about the black american/african divide, because I know neither my parents or her parents would be pleased with a black american significant other, but your statements that imply that africans worship white people are way off. If anything, I&#39;ve found that african families are very unlikely to be pleased with a white person marrying into the family (my parents included).

I&#39;m not saying your opinion isn&#39;t true of some africans, but I think it&#39;s extremely presumptuous and ignorant of you to say it all makes sense because she&#39;s african. <_<

[afrogeek]

:afro: At the risk of getting a :icon_twak: I&#39;ll admit that while I have dated some black males and white ones, too as far back as junior high school, I have never felt desire for a black man/boy. I only dated them because I felt like that was what I was supposed to do (family pressure). Now before anybody goes off the deep end about this, just know that I&#39;ve had exactly seven boyfriends (and that includes my husband) since junior high, so I haven&#39;t exactly dated a whole lot of men/boys of any race. I&#39;m extremely particular, period. I went into couselling about this with a black therapish because I thought there was something wrong with me. And yes, I have good relationships with most of my male family members. After five years it turned out I just was who I was. I doesn&#39;t really sound like your friend has self-hate issues; she just sounds to me like someone who likes what&#39;s different from herself. So her attitude is unusual; unless she&#39;s openly hostile toward black men and you&#39;ve already said she&#39;s not, what does it matter? If she&#39;s comfortable with herself and her choices and you&#39;re comfortable with her being who she is, tell the rest of the world to go soak their heads. :afro:

[lsubabiedee]

people are gonna be attracted to who they are attracted to no matter what their beliefs or lifestyles

a preference is a preference....most people prefer to date in their own ethnicity/race....some prefer others....

i have a preference...and i would not consider myself to be suffering from self-hatred...i&#39;ve had this preference since as early as i can remember...

ur friend is probably just like me...well wait...no...i have dated black men....but i wouldnt say that she has self-hatred issues

[afrodite2103]

Originally posted by laineymo@Jan 17 2005, 04:38 AM
How is it impossible? I&#39;m sure there are several people on the board who aren&#39;t attracted to at least one white/asian/indian guy.

I think there are several levels to attraction. Just because she isn&#39;t interested in Black men romantically, doesn&#39;t mean she cannot see the beauty in Black men; after all, I&#39;m sure she can see the beauty in herself (someone who was produced in part by a Black man). But to answer the question, no I don&#39;t think she is suffering from self-hate.

677482


ITA

[Venetter]

Originally posted by afrodite2103@Jan 17 2005, 11:07 AM
ITA

677944


On the flip side: My bf is white and so far has only romanticly attracted to black women. He finds some white women attractive (on his list are Chalize Theron and Angelina Jolie), but as far as sexual attraction goes, he only goes for black women.

go fig!

[Atanasova]

Originally posted by Venetter@Jan 17 2005, 10:11 AM
On the flip side: My bf is white and so far has only romanticly attracted to black women. He finds some white women attractive (on his list are Chalize Theron and Angelina Jolie), but as far as sexual attraction goes, he only goes for black women.

go fig!

678086


My SO is the same way and he&#39;s definitely not self-hating. There&#39;s nothing wrong with preference of any kind that&#39;s accompanied with positive self-image and self-respect.

[DreamGyrl]

My sister is dark skinned and was picked on incessantly by her classmates throughout grade school.
Her first husband was black. Her second husband was white, and after him it&#39;s been white men for about 10 years that she&#39;s been dating.
Now, she&#39;s almost 40 and it&#39;s all about black men for her. Now really, my sister doesn&#39;t seem to have much in common with the black men in our area (we&#39;re from South Dallas, Oak Cliff/Pleasant Grove areas). But she wants a bruvah so badly that *I* feel as if she&#39;s lowering her standards to get one. She is usually a very picky woman and so she goes long whiles without anyone to call a "steady".

{The last guy that was everything she wanted (black and successful) told her -- after almost a year of them courting or whatever! -- that he couldn&#39;t see himself marrying a woman who hadn&#39;t finished college. College ain&#39;t everythang -- big sis is VERY self-educated and has been ALL OVER this world.}

Okay I went too far.
What I&#39;m trying to say is, big sis had a complex that she rarely connected with her dating preferences. So perhaps it&#39;s like that for your friend...

[Jess82]

I don&#39;t think it necessarly means that she has issues. Maybe her strong afrocentricity can be used to compensate some self-issues,but not necessarly... As long as she loves herself thats the most important. Just because she is Black doesn&#39;t mean that she has to date Black men or that she has to be attracted by them. And just because she doesn&#39;t date them doesn&#39;t mean that she doesn&#39;t appreciate their beauty (or recognize it when she sees it)...

[vinny_46]

Originally posted by afrogeek@Jan 17 2005, 04:01 AM
:afro: At the risk of getting a :icon_twak: I&#39;ll admit that while I have dated some black males and white ones, too as far back as junior high school, I have never felt desire for a black man/boy. I only dated them because I felt like that was what I was supposed to do (family pressure). Now before anybody goes off the deep end about this, just know that I&#39;ve had exactly seven boyfriends (and that includes my husband) since junior high, so I haven&#39;t exactly dated a whole lot of men/boys of any race. I&#39;m extremely particular, period. I went into couselling about this with a black therapish because I thought there was something wrong with me. And yes, I have good relationships with most of my male family members. After five years it turned out I just was who I was. I doesn&#39;t really sound like your friend has self-hate issues; she just sounds to me like someone who likes what&#39;s different from herself. So her attitude is unusual; unless she&#39;s openly hostile toward black men and you&#39;ve already said she&#39;s not, what does it matter? If she&#39;s comfortable with herself and her choices and you&#39;re comfortable with her being who she is, tell the rest of the world to go soak their heads. :afro:

677704


Thanks for sharing that! :smil3f72836ee752e:

[Denny]

Interesting thread. Think about it how many of us ladies felt smug when we realised famous actor Robert De Niro had a thing for black ladies or did we automatically assume he hated himself as an Italian-American?
I don&#39;t know whether your friend hates herself, she does not seem too maybe for her its just a preference. I personally NEVER found light skin black men attractive until I started watching CSI! lol :D So maybe one day some black Adonis may come her way and floor her, I have friends with white husbands who said if you told them they would date, marry and have kids with a white man they would have laughed in your face but Cupid had the last laugh.

[sonce]

Originally posted by Denny@Jan 18 2005, 02:47 PM
Interesting thread. Think about it how many of us ladies felt smug when we realised famous actor Robert De Niro had a thing for black ladies or did we automatically assume he hated himself as an Italian-American?
I don&#39;t know whether your friend hates herself, she does not seem too maybe for her its just a preference. I personally NEVER found light skin black men attractive until I started watching CSI! lol :D So maybe one day some black Adonis may come her way and floor her, I have friends with white husbands who said if you told them they would date, marry and have kids with a white man they would have laughed in your face but Cupid had the last laugh.

679105


you raise a good point there--self-hatred isn&#39;t really a consideration when we&#39;re talking about white people...but maybe that&#39;s because they don&#39;t have a long and extensive history of attempts to destroy their self-respect and awareness (that continue even to this day in our case) ?

"Cupid had the last laugh"--that&#39;s soo adorable :D love really is important and it&#39;s beautiful that they followed their hearts instead of adamantly holding on to any reluctance they might have felt at falling for someone different ^_^

[charli]

He finds some white women attractive ... but as far as sexual attraction goes, he only goes for black women

That is actually extremely insulting and I am always amazed when black women think this is okay. He thinks WW are cute, but he only wants to f--- BW. Okay...

[MsCurly85]

Originally posted by sonce@Jan 18 2005, 05:50 PM
you raise a good point there--self-hatred isn&#39;t really a consideration when we&#39;re talking about white people...but maybe that&#39;s because they don&#39;t have a long and extensive history of attempts to destroy their self-respect and awareness (that continue even to this day in our case) ?

"Cupid had the last laugh"--that&#39;s soo adorable :D love really is important and it&#39;s beautiful that they followed their hearts instead of adamantly holding on to any reluctance they might have felt at falling for someone different ^_^

679611


Thats true... we do have a history of attempt to destroy black peoples own self.. but im glad you said attempt.... many black people don&#39;t feed into this, and love themseleves. Its just shows you that anything black people do, people try to assume its self hate.. where its the way we style our hair(if you have natural hair.. i hear comments on your trying to be white... where at you relax- i hear people say your trying to be white.. its a no win situation.), or how we act, or the hobbies or things we wanna do etc.... that annoys me b/c its simply not true. Being black- people will always try to turn anything you do on you and say your ashamed, when you just being you, and doing things out of your own free choice and living your life the way you want to, like any other race of people.

[sonce]

Originally posted by MsCurly85@Jan 19 2005, 12:19 AM
Thats true... we do have a history of attempt to destroy black peoples own self.. but im glad you said attempt.... many black people don&#39;t feed into this, and love themseleves. Its just shows you that anything black people do, people try to assume its self hate.. where its the way we style our hair(if you have natural hair.. i hear comments on your trying to be white... where at you relax- i hear people say your trying to be white.. its a no win situation.), or how we act, or the hobbies or things we wanna do etc.... that annoys me b/c its simply not true. Being black- people will always try to turn anything you do on you and say your ashamed, when you just being you, and doing things out of your own free choice and living your life the way you want to, like any other race of people.

679728


Seriously I hear you on this one--I think that being black more than anything else has always been construed in terms of what you cannot do, and although the freedoms we enjoy in every day life are increasingly matching those we would have in an ideal situation, many people (black and white) still cannot let go of the tendency to police blackness. In some ways I think it&#39;s because black people have always been so restricted in this country that everyone has become accustomed to that and as legal/social restrictions lift, people impose mental/behavioral ones in their place to maintain the status quo that they are comfortable with (i.e. blackness means you have to be in some way enslaved). It&#39;s very subconscious on the part of black people, while I think it might be more deliberate when coming from white people.

And of course, if you reject others&#39; overt attempts to place restrictions on you and regulate your blackness in ways they are comfortable with ("black people don&#39;t do that" "you&#39;re acting white" etc etc), then they resort to Plan B, which is to subtly try to control you by invoking the idea that you are ashamed of your blackness (an accusation designed to make you &#39;prove them wrong&#39; by bringing your behavior back within the confines of what they consider acceptable for black people)...

(Whew, Am I making any sense here? it&#39;s hard to explain myself clearly on this)

[sonce]

Originally posted by charli@Jan 18 2005, 11:41 PM
That is actually extremely insulting and I am always amazed when black women think this is okay. He thinks WW are cute, but he only wants to f--- BW. Okay...

679672


ummm...I can&#39;t speak for venetter but it seems to me that you are misconstruing her words. Being sexually attracted to black women only does not mean that sex is the only use he finds for them...rather it means that *in addition to other roles they play in his life* black women are also his choice of sexual partners...for instance, my SO can befriend women of all races and include them in most areas of his life, but romantically/sexually/relationship-wise, he only takes things to the next level with black women because they are who he finds attractive in that way. A black woman is simply what he wants for his lover/girlfriend/wife, not because he&#39;s bought into the whole &#39;black women are for sex&#39; way of looking at things, but because they are who he is attracted to as women and friends (not just friends as is the case with other races of women).

[charli]

Originally posted by sonce@Jan 18 2005, 07:53 PM
ummm...I can&#39;t speak for venetter but it seems to me that you are misconstruing her words. Being sexually attracted to black women only does not mean that sex is the only use he finds for them...rather it means that *in addition to other roles they play in his life* black women are also his choice of sexual partners...for instance, my SO can befriend women of all races and include them in most areas of his life, but romantically/sexually/relationship-wise, he only takes things to the next level with black women because they are who he finds attractive in that way. A black woman is simply what he wants for his lover/girlfriend/wife, not because he&#39;s bought into the whole &#39;black women are for sex&#39; way of looking at things, but because they are who he is attracted to as women and friends (not just friends as is the case with other races of women).

680035



I did not misconstrue things, however, I think you are reading into things by adding things she did not say. I do not equate "sexual attraction" with taking it to the next level or being partners in most parts of their lives. I took it at face value, that he is attracted to women of other races but only sexually attracted to black women. I find that insulting. I&#39;m not saying he thinks black women are ONLY good for sex, but you tell me, that&#39;s not far off.

I don&#39;t find flattery in sexual attraction. Quite frankly, I take a "sexually attracted to only black women" as a fetishation of black female sexuality. Some women find it flattering that they have obtained exclusitivity, especially if it is over that of white women who tend to have the upper hand, however I do not. It would have been an entirely different hing if she said he finds WM attractive but only wants to marry a BW, that, IMO is more respectful and tasteful than the sexual -- or even the romantic-- attraction because NEITHER imply a permanence in a relationship.

I&#39;ll put my money on it that he&#39;s gonna marry a WM.

[mstnt]

Me too...Charli

[sonce]

Originally posted by charli@Jan 19 2005, 05:10 AM
I did not misconstrue things, however, I think you are reading into things by adding things she did not say. I do not equate "sexual attraction" with taking it to the next level or being partners in most parts of their lives. I took it at face value, that he is attracted to women of other races but only sexually attracted to black women. I find that insulting. I&#39;m not saying he thinks black women are ONLY good for sex, but you tell me, that&#39;s not far off.

I don&#39;t find flattery in sexual attraction. Quite frankly, I take a "sexually attracted to only black women" as a fetishation of black female sexuality. Some women find it flattering that they have obtained exclusitivity, especially if it is over that of white women who tend to have the upper hand, however I do not. It would have been an entirely different hing if she said he finds WM attractive but only wants to marry a BW, that, IMO is more respectful and tasteful than the sexual -- or even the romantic-- attraction because NEITHER imply a permanence in a relationship.

I&#39;ll put my money on it that he&#39;s gonna marry a WM.

680121


That&#39;s a pretty broad statement (bolded part)...does this also apply to black men that are attracted to only black women as sexual partners? or are they exempt from the fetishist category because their attraction makes sense to you?

I mean I see your point and I agree that if his exclusive attraction to black women as sexual partners doesn&#39;t also include attraction to black women as marriage partners, then his interest may be fetishistic in nature. However, I don&#39;t recall venetter mentioning that he&#39;s *not* exclusively attracted to black women marriage-wise, so perhaps you were a bit too quick to take offense? Your last comment indicates to me that you already assume his interest in black women doesn&#39;t extend to the realm of marriage, and if that is the case, then you are being presumptuous and jumping the gun here.

@Venetter--has your boyfriend ever mentioned marriage and black women in the same context, or has he only discussed sexual attraction?

[afrogeek]

Originally posted by MsCurly85+ Jan 19 2005, 12:19 AM-->
Thats true... we do have a history of attempt to destroy black peoples own self.. but im glad you said attempt.... many black people don&#39;t feed into this, and love themseleves. Its just shows you that anything black people do, people try to assume its self hate.. where its the way we style our hair(if you have natural hair.. i hear comments on your trying to be white... where at you relax- i hear people say your trying to be white.. its a no win situation.), or how we act, or the hobbies or things we wanna do etc.... that annoys me b/c its simply not true. Being black- people will always try to turn anything you do on you and say your ashamed, when you just being you, and doing things out of your own free choice and living your life the way you want to, like any other race of people.[/b]
<!--QuoteBegin-sonce@Jan 19 2005, 05:45 AM
Seriously I hear you on this one--I think that being black more than anything else has always been construed in terms of what you cannot do, and although the freedoms we enjoy in every day life are increasingly matching those we would have in an ideal situation, many people (black and white) still cannot let go of the tendency to police blackness. In some ways I think it&#39;s because black people have always been so restricted in this country that everyone has become accustomed to that and as legal/social restrictions lift, people impose mental/behavioral ones in their place to maintain the status quo that they are comfortable with (i.e. blackness means you have to be in some way enslaved). It&#39;s very subconscious on the part of black people, while I think it might be more deliberate when coming from white people.

And of course, if you reject others&#39; overt attempts to place restrictions on you and regulate your blackness in ways they are comfortable with ("black people don&#39;t do that"Â "you&#39;re acting white" etc etc), then they resort to Plan B, which is to subtly try to control you by invoking the idea that you are ashamed of your blackness (an accusation designed to make you &#39;prove them wrong&#39; by bringing your behavior back within the confines of what they consider acceptable for black people)...

(Whew, Am I making any sense here? it&#39;s hard to explain myself clearly on this)

680031


:afro: @ Sonce, You&#39;re making perfectly good sense to anyone who really wants to understand and not just judge. @Sonce and MsCurly85, you guys really hit the nail on the head.
:smil3f72836ee752e: :smil3f72836ee752e: :smil3f72836ee752e: :afro:

[charli]

Your last comment indicates to me that you already assume his interest in black women doesn&#39;t extend to the realm of marriage, and if that is the case, then you are being presumptuous and jumping the gun here.

I am basing my post on what was said.

Look, many men have a Madonna/Whore mentality when it comes to women. WM and BW have a very extensive history of this mentality maifesting in real life. Not that anyone doesn&#39;t know this, but during slavery and post slavery times, the white woman was the wife, the one you took care of and protected, and the BW was the dirty little secret, the buck wild you used for sex and even if he loved her, she wouldn&#39;t be the one to get the same level of respect as the WW. The WW was the Madonna and the BW was the whore.

Many WM still posess remnants of this mentality today. I take the statement of "being attracted to WW but sexually attracted to BW" (paraphrasing here) as a manifestation of that mentality. The proof is in the pudding because he can say he wants to marry a BW all he wants, but I betcha he marries a WM, and that&#39;s MY opinion, in the end it matters what he does.

I do find an unwillingness to date ones own race to the exclusivity of another to be problematic. It might be less so if the statement said that he just wasn&#39;t attracted to WW, but dated women of MANY other races, but the statement mentioned BW exclusively, which seems to be more charged and more indicitave of the above mentioned mentality. There are plenty of women on this board that are married to WM and I have yet to read one post indicating that their DH is sexually attracted to BW exclusively, but attracted to WW. It could be the case, but I&#39;ll put my money on it that that&#39;s not a common mentality among MARRIED IR couples.

If a BM told me he was only sexually attracted to light-skinned women, my natural response would be "oh, so you have some type of hang up about light skinned women." It would not be flattering to me because of my complexion, it would indicate a bigger problem. And you all know dang well that if a BM posted that he found BW attractive but was only sexually attracted to WW, you KNOW y&#39;all would see the problem in that. The only reason that this WM-->BW is acceptable is because (categorically spealing) we have been so unwanted by BM and others that the minute we are wanted, we relish in it, even if it is twisted underneath it all.


does this also apply to black men that are attracted to only black women as sexual partners? or are they exempt from the fetishist category because their attraction makes sense to you?

Many times, yes and I will explain that in more detail. BW statistically have the lowest rate of marriage among all cultures. There is also a rampant mentality among BM that BW are good for sex, but obviously they do not marry us in large numbers. Some of that is that BM marry WM, but a lot of that is that they don&#39;t feel the need to marry us at all.

Think about it, he can get sex when he wants it, he can probably get a place to stay or a car to drive if he needs to. He can have children and not be obligated to be their primary caregiver (as witnessed by the large numbers of single black mothers) he can get all the benefits that normally would have come for commitment (maybe she&#39;ll cosign for his car or cell phone) without having to make the commitment. Yes I think it also applies, though because our history is different with BM, it is not so much this fetish as it is a general lack of regard and respect of BW as marriage partners. And again, this doesn&#39;t apply to ALL BM, so I don&#39;t want to hear about your husbands and such, but this is clearly a persistent problem in the black community.

[watercolorz]

The OP wanted to know why she was seeing her natural, down, friend not dating black men… even though she seemed to not have an issue with black men (I’m paraphrasing, cause I’m too lazy to pull the quote).

I will speak of my own experience and give you my opinion. I have gone through periods of being single and not dating black men. Not because I was avoiding them, but because they weren’t asking.

I was raised with old-fashioned values and I believe that men ask women out (this has been confirmed by the book “He’s just not that into you”). They pay, and after a couple of dates I reciprocate with a home cooked meal with baked goods to take home. I operate in a platonic/romantic mode until I get to know the guy and we take it to the next level.

With my own set of rules I don’t compromise… it is what it is. I decided not to limit myself to black men, but to limit myself to men who I found attractive who treated me like I wanted to be treated.

I have always been politically, socially, and academically active… in other words I have interest and activities that don’t revolve exclusively around getting a man. But I have never sat at home lonely on a Sat night either.

Have there been periods of time when I haven’t dated a black man… yes and sometimes those periods have been extensive (years) but I was always open to the idea and all things being equal I would go as far as to say I prefer to date black men.

But with that being said I am not going to compromise my principles to be with a black man. I worked with a brotha who was ‘feeling’ me, but he said that he “didn’t pay” I asked him if he thought I was a gold-digger… he said naw just too much trouble, I would spend all his money and take too long to break off a lil somethin’, somethin’… Okay.

Now he was a “catch” and there were plenty of sistas in my office (some who made less money than he did) who all made sure that he rarely if ever had to buy his own lunch or dinner. And I know there was a weekly lottery to see who was going to be his bed warmer.

And I wasn’t mad at him, he had his rules I had mine… it was apparent we weren’t compatible, we had different values. Well I got a rep that I wasn’t into brothas… so the word spread round the campfire and I was “black listed”…

Now to further add to my mystic and continue this legend was the fact the guy I did start dating who was white, used to bring me lunch a couple a times a week (I love Chinese food). Let me drive one of his cars while mine was in the shop and used to send me flowers once a month or so. The brothas around the water cooler decided this proved that regardless of my good works in the community or my outward appearance… I didn’t have love for brothas. The word was that a brotha would have to have millions of dollars and look like LL before I would give him some play.

So wasn’t everyone surprised when I started dating my current SO, (who isn’t a millionaire LL look-a-like). He had been “warned” about me, told how I “was”… but he asked me out respectfully, and I said yes. He didn’t pit me against other women that we knew and let me know I was his first choice and had his undivided attention. And much to the shock of all those who had speculated about how “down” I was and my own possible “self-hatred” issues… that I returned his affections and we started dating.


To answer the other point WM and BW… I personally never date WM who are “into” BW. I find that they are oft disappointed by me, and that they carry preconceived notions about how a sista is supposed to act- that I find annoying.

I also don’t date brothas (or anybody else) who just wants me because of X… because that is not being in a relationship, it is playing a role. ~W

[sonce]

Originally posted by charli@Jan 19 2005, 04:29 PM
I am basing my post on what was said.

Look, many men have a Madonna/Whore mentality when it comes to women. WM and BW have a very extensive history of this mentality maifesting in real life. Not that anyone doesn&#39;t know this, but during slavery and post slavery times, the white woman was the wife, the one you took care of and protected, and the BW was the dirty little secret, the buck wild you used for sex and even if he loved her, she wouldn&#39;t be the one to get the same level of respect as the WW. The WW was the Madonna and the BW was the whore.

Many WM still posess remnants of this mentality today. I take the statement of "being attracted to WW but sexually attracted to BW" (paraphrasing here) as a manifestation of that mentality. The proof is in the pudding because he can say he wants to marry a BW all he wants, but I betcha he marries a WM, and that&#39;s MY opinion, in the end it matters what he does.

I do find an unwillingness to date ones own race to the exclusivity of another to be problematic. It might be less so if the statement said that he just wasn&#39;t attracted to WW, but dated women of MANY other races, but the statement mentioned BW exclusively, which seems to be more charged and more indicitave of the above mentioned mentality. There are plenty of women on this board that are married to WM and I have yet to read one post indicating that their DH is sexually attracted to BW exclusively, but attracted to WW. It could be the case, but I&#39;ll put my money on it that that&#39;s not a common mentality among MARRIED IR couples.

If a BM told me he was only sexually attracted to light-skinned women, my natural response would be "oh, so you have some type of hang up about light skinned women." It would not be flattering to me because of my complexion, it would indicate a bigger problem. And you all know dang well that if a BM posted that he found BW attractive but was only sexually attracted to WW, you KNOW y&#39;all would see the problem in that. The only reason that this WM-->BW is acceptable is because (categorically spealing) we have been so unwanted by BM and others that the minute we are wanted, we relish in it, even if it is twisted underneath it all.
Many times, yes and I will explain that in more detail. BW statistically have the lowest rate of marriage among all cultures. There is also a rampant mentality among BM that BW are good for sex, but obviously they do not marry us in large numbers. Some of that is that BM marry WM, but a lot of that is that they don&#39;t feel the need to marry us at all.

Think about it, he can get sex when he wants it, he can probably get a place to stay or a car to drive if he needs to. He can have children and not be obligated to be their primary caregiver (as witnessed by the large numbers of single black mothers) he can get all the benefits that normally would have come for commitment (maybe she&#39;ll cosign for his car or cell phone) without having to make the commitment. Yes I think it also applies, though because our history is different with BM, it is not so much this fetish as it is a general lack of regard and respect of BW as marriage partners. And again, this doesn&#39;t apply to ALL BM, so I don&#39;t want to hear about your husbands and such, but this is clearly a persistent problem in the black community.

680592


Wow, charli, although I think that you are too hasty to over-generalize (is that a word? :dunno:) with some of your conclusions about white men who date black women exclusively, it&#39;s very impressive that you are just as analytical and penetrating in your discussion of black male/black female relationships. I&#39;ve found that it&#39;s rare that those who seem quick to criticize interracial dating dynamics are also able to turn the same discerning eye on intraracial relationships. Bravo lady :smil3f72836ee752e:

I can&#39;t tell you that you&#39;re wrong to assume that white men who are exclusively sexually attracted to black women don&#39;t extend their interest to the realm of marriage (no studies to point to, and it is your right to have an opinion). But I don&#39;t think you are right to paint them all with the same brush, and I would argue that your conclusion does not apply to the majority. Perhaps I am seeing things with rose-tinted glasses, or perhaps you are being pessimistic...who knows...

[afrodite2103]

Originally posted by sonce@Jan 19 2005, 03:45 AM
Seriously I hear you on this one--I think that being black more than anything else has always been construed in terms of what you cannot do, and although the freedoms we enjoy in every day life are increasingly matching those we would have in an ideal situation, many people (black and white) still cannot let go of the tendency to police blackness. In some ways I think it&#39;s because black people have always been so restricted in this country that everyone has become accustomed to that and as legal/social restrictions lift, people impose mental/behavioral ones in their place to maintain the status quo that they are comfortable with (i.e. blackness means you have to be in some way enslaved). It&#39;s very subconscious on the part of black people, while I think it might be more deliberate when coming from white people.

And of course, if you reject others&#39; overt attempts to place restrictions on you and regulate your blackness in ways they are comfortable with ("black people don&#39;t do that" "you&#39;re acting white" etc etc), then they resort to Plan B, which is to subtly try to control you by invoking the idea that you are ashamed of your blackness (an accusation designed to make you &#39;prove them wrong&#39; by bringing your behavior back within the confines of what they consider acceptable for black people)...

(Whew, Am I making any sense here? it&#39;s hard to explain myself clearly on this)

680031


You and MsCurly hit it right on the head. :smil3f72836ee752e:

[charli]

I can&#39;t tell you that you&#39;re wrong to assume that white men who are exclusively sexually attracted to black women don&#39;t extend their interest to the realm of marriage (no studies to point to, and it is your right to have an opinion). But I don&#39;t think you are right to paint them all with the same brush, and I would argue that your conclusion does not apply to the majority. Perhaps I am seeing things with rose-tinted glasses, or perhaps you are being pessimistic...who knows...


No, no, no, don&#39;t get it wrong, I&#39;m not saying all, I said many and I have always made effort to make sure that I don&#39;t use statements like "all" or "every" when making points like this. And I&#39;m not painting anyone with a wide brush. I think, and in my experience on this board, people like to say "well ALL XYZ are not like that therefore what you have said is not accurate." When I did not make the statement that it applied to all or even the majority of WM. And I also believe that it&#39;s more common than BW care to admit, just as much as BM/BW relationship ills are more common than people in them care to admit.

[ebonyy]

PEOPLE PREJUDICE OF THEIR OWN RACE :icon_headshake:

[Venetter]

Originally posted by sonce@Jan 19 2005, 02:23 PM
Wow, charli, although I think that you are too hasty to over-generalize (is that a word? :dunno:) with some of your conclusions about white men who date black women exclusively, it&#39;s very impressive that you are just as analytical and penetrating in your discussion of black male/black female relationships. I&#39;ve found that it&#39;s rare that those who seem quick to criticize interracial dating dynamics are also able to turn the same discerning eye on intraracial relationships. Bravo lady :smil3f72836ee752e:

I can&#39;t tell you that you&#39;re wrong to assume that white men who are exclusively sexually attracted to black women don&#39;t extend their interest to the realm of marriage (no studies to point to, and it is your right to have an opinion). But I don&#39;t think you are right to paint them all with the same brush, and I would argue that your conclusion does not apply to the majority. Perhaps I am seeing things with rose-tinted glasses, or perhaps you are being pessimistic...who knows...

680747


Dang! Maybe I should have said "romantically" attracted to, geesh! :rolleyes:


@Venetter--has your boyfriend ever mentioned marriage and black women in the same context, or has he only discussed sexual attraction?

Yes. He&#39;s been married once before, to a black woman. We&#39;ve been together now going on 2 years, talk about marriage (usually him bringing it up) constantly, etc, etc, etc.

I&#39;ve once encountered the kind of white man that charli has mentioned and I won&#39;t be making that mistake 2x.

[Sheba]

I know this might not sound very intelligent on my behalf, but I don&#39;t get it.
If you love black; people, culture and self is possible to not want to someone of your own liking. I am confused that sounds backwards to me. But hey whatever suit her and as long as she happy, my opinion does not count.

[wildandkinky]

Originally posted by sonce@Jan 19 2005, 05:45 AM
Seriously I hear you on this one--I think that being black more than anything else has always been construed in terms of what you cannot do, and although the freedoms we enjoy in every day life are increasingly matching those we would have in an ideal situation, many people (black and white) still cannot let go of the tendency to police blackness. In some ways I think it&#39;s because black people have always been so restricted in this country that everyone has become accustomed to that and as legal/social restrictions lift, people impose mental/behavioral ones in their place to maintain the status quo that they are comfortable with (i.e. blackness means you have to be in some way enslaved). It&#39;s very subconscious on the part of black people, while I think it might be more deliberate when coming from white people.

And of course, if you reject others&#39; overt attempts to place restrictions on you and regulate your blackness in ways they are comfortable with ("black people don&#39;t do that" "you&#39;re acting white" etc etc), then they resort to Plan B, which is to subtly try to control you by invoking the idea that you are ashamed of your blackness (an accusation designed to make you &#39;prove them wrong&#39; by bringing your behavior back within the confines of what they consider acceptable for black people)...

(Whew, Am I making any sense here? it&#39;s hard to explain myself clearly on this)

680031


Great post!

Too many people allow themselves to be cornered by the stereotypes of others.

[tenachie]

Responding to the OP,

I think I am similar to the Ghanaian friend in question. I&#39;m African with typical features, very dark skinned, natural, know my history, have been described as afrocentric, have no problems with black men in my family though I have no brothers, and have been called out on my tendency to fancy white guys.

that revelation occured about 6 years ago. I was very upset that people would think that of me. do i hate myself? no. do I hate black men? no. Do i consciously say no, he&#39;s a black guy I can&#39;t like him or how dare he think he can ask me out? no. So why then am I more easily attracted to white men than black?

Could be because I grew up in a white neighbourhood (in europe) where my being black was on oddity, but not large enough for me to feel discriminated. I grew up with crushes on my classmates (white), I mean these were the ones I played kiss-chase and exchanged letters with. And I had fun!

I suppose my consciousness of being a black person, and not fitting that role coincided with my moving to America--lots of race relations history & stereotypes here!!!!

So at first I was upset that people thought I had black-self hatred, but now I make no apologies. I am who I am. there is some truth to what they say. Give me 20 random white guys, and i would probably be attracted to half of them (more european than american)....give me 20 random black guys, I would be attracted to less, but the common thread would be that they would probably be western raised Africans.

The older I get (mid-twenties now), the more I appreciate the beauty of black men....I can "see" them now. Does that even make sense? Even though I may fancy white guys more, I do not make it any easier for them to approach me. equal opportunity hard to get girl here. The last thing I need is to be someone&#39;s token.

hope all that makes sense.