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AgentDime
01-31-2005, 08:45 PM
I was reading the thread about the dating scene for Black Women in Asia. Many of the posters said that the Japanese and American/ Foreign men liked the submissiveness of the Japanese women. It seems that there is a preference for submissive women by most men in most cultures. For example, we often hear the stereotype that Black men date women who are not Black, because they will do what they want them to.

This is not an interracial dating issue....

But I am curious to know...... if the majority of men in the world prefer a submissive woman, then why not teach all women to be submissive?

(I am not advocating or disagreeing with submissive women, just putting the question out there).

NLight1
01-31-2005, 08:53 PM
I don't know if the "majority" of men in the world prefer submissive women. I know many brothas who prefer to have a strong sista and I do know a few men who prefer a submissive woman. About why not teach our daughters to be submissive, well if I do have kids one day, I won't teach my daughter to be submisive to anyone but God,period. There is no reason anyone to submit to another human being. I will teach her that there should be equal respect between men and women. No one is higher or better than the other and to teach her otherwise would be ignorance and stupidity on my part.

My :2cents:

Lokii
01-31-2005, 09:04 PM
Absolutely not! There are plenty of men who prefer submissive women. But they are not exceptional men and not worth the time of day for any accomplished woman. I want my daughters to have the best of everything including men.

RubyRedLove
01-31-2005, 09:47 PM
I will teach my children submission according to the bible. They are to submit to God because (according to my beliefs) he is the highest authority. In marriage, God says that women are to submit to their husbands and that husbands are to submit to their wives. They are to submit to their spouses out of honor & respect. They are not to lay down and be anybody's doormat.

naturalcd
01-31-2005, 10:13 PM
Originally posted by Kreative@Jan 31 2005, 04:47 PM
I will teach my children submission according to the bible. They are to submit to God because (according to my beliefs) he is the highest authority. In marriage, God says that women are to submit to their husbands and that husbands are to submit to their wives. They are to submit to their spouses out of honor & respect. They are not to lay down and be anybody's doormat.

697340


:smil3f72836ee752e:
Hear, hear! I totally agree with that one...Paul speaks about that in the epistles and that husbands aught to love their wives as Jesus loved the church and gave himself for it. Now that is unconditional, unselfish, self-sacrificing love! That is not a picture of dictatorship or abasement.

SouthernShorty
01-31-2005, 10:34 PM
Originally posted by NLight1+Jan 31 2005, 02:53 PM-->
I know many brothas who prefer to have a strong sista and I do know a few men who prefer a submissive woman.
[/b]

I've always wondered why some women feel the two are completely separate or complete opposites. I feel that you can be both. One of the words in the definition of submissive (submit) is yield. I feel that you can yield to certain things, be humble and modest and all that and still be a strong black woman. There are roles that males and females have in a relationship, both public and private roles. You gotta let a man be a man. I for one would never call my man out or correct him (and definitely never ridicule him) in public. That's just one example of things that I see on a regular basis that maybe women should take a minute to think about. There are many ways that we as females can just snip snip snip away at a man. I'm secure enough to step back and submit and let him handle things, and strong enough to step up beside him when he needs help carrying the weight, and when it's right it feels so good.

<!--QuoteBegin-Kreative@Jan 31 2005, 03:47 PM
They are to submit to their spouses out of honor & respect. They are not to lay down and be anybody&#39;s doormat.

697340


You said it better than I ever could; I really didn&#39;t need to type all the rest of the stuff that I did.


By now I should know better than to post my thoughts about relationships because they are never well received , but I continue to try to voice my opinion in a nice, non-provoking manner.

MsCurly85
01-31-2005, 10:39 PM
im sure theres men who want women submissive... but theres also guys who like a lady to stand up for herself.... and expresses what she likes and dislikes and so on. Just basically be hereself... like everyone is. I would rather be by myself then to submit to a guy.. whats the point? why be with someone when you are dead inside... basically someones slave.... and living life just for someone else.. PLEASE.. god gave me a life im living it!!!

When I have a daughter.. I never would teach her that... please.. im teaching her independence.. self esstem and respect... and to surround herself with ppl who love that in her.

vinny_46
01-31-2005, 10:51 PM
Originally posted by AgentDime@Jan 31 2005, 01:45 PM

But I am curious to know...... if the majority of men in the world prefer a submissive woman, then why not teach all women to be submissive?


697238


They did, in the past. But women broke free of that with the suffrage movement and the 60&#39;s movements.

You can only keep someone down for so long.

bluvember
01-31-2005, 11:12 PM
This topic reminds me of that scene in Coming To America.

naturalmama
01-31-2005, 11:28 PM
I&#39;m sorry but most of the men I know want to be the leader. I think maybe there is this idea that being submissive means being a doormat or never having an opinion. From my observations its in a mans nature to want to lead. Having someone boss him around, tell him how to do everything, talk down to him is not appealing to most men.

Personally I think its in the manner of voicing your opinion that makes a difference. Because men need our help in making decisions but they dont need to be talked down to or treated like children. They need to know they are respected and I believe being submissive means allowing your man to be a man while also allowing you to make decisions and voice your opinion.

Blk__beauty
01-31-2005, 11:44 PM
Guess that&#39;s why I am still single and if that&#39;s the case, I will be single for the rest of my life. I was not taught to be submissive, but I had no choice, but to learn coming from a household with two southern parents and a dad who says, "I make enough money to take care of my family... my wife should be home when my kids get there..." Instead of internalizing that behavior I saw from my mom... I rebelled... now, don&#39;t get it twisted... I understand the role that the man plays in life and in the family and I have no problem with a man being a man, and the head of my household... I truly respect the man and they way God set up the family structure, however I cannot and will not sit around and be treated like junk by some man who cannot respect nor handle my womanhood...

natitwists
02-01-2005, 12:54 AM
Originally posted by NLight1@Jan 31 2005, 03:53 PM
I don&#39;t know if the "majority" of men in the world prefer submissive women. I know many brothas who prefer to have a strong sista and I do know a few men who prefer a submissive woman. About why not teach our daughters to be submissive, well if I do have kids one day, I won&#39;t teach my daughter to be submisive to anyone but God,period. There is no reason anyone to submit to another human being. I will teach her that there should be equal respect between men and women. No one is higher or better than the other and to teach her otherwise would be ignorance and stupidity on my part.

My :2cents:

697251



Giiiiiiiiiiirl, get outta my head!!! :)

PrincessDrRe
02-01-2005, 03:56 AM
Originally posted by bluvember@Jan 31 2005, 07:12 PM
This topic reminds me of that scene in Coming To America.

697489


"Bark like a big dog....."
Prince Hakeem

winnie
02-01-2005, 04:37 AM
I plan on teaching my future daughters to take over the world. The boys have had there fun. Now it&#39;s our turn to run things.

putafever
02-01-2005, 11:24 PM
we need to define submissiveness and what makes a sista strong. because what we may define as submissiveness, could not be. because i see a lot of women who say that they are strong black sistas and they are not that at all. they consider being strong as with be loud, ignorant and having the ability to cuss in public, do the gooseneck with the hand on the hip letting the backbone slip. just think sha-nay-nay from the martin lawrenece show.

i am for strong black sistas, but you look at the behaviors of a lot of black sistahs and i can imagine why black men get tired of the attitude and mouth. i see 12 year old black girls who can out cuss any adult woman these days. i am seeing girls trying to out do boys in the vulgarity. i think girls do out do the boys. they think that having this ability makes them strong and making them appear that no one can control or the one up over them, but all it is doing is making them look pathetic hot little numbers.

a true strong black woman may have to cuss sometime, but when she is contantly loud, cussing and getting all up in your face pointing her finger into it, i think she is really weak and submissive trying to pretend to be strong since she is trying too hard. a strong black woman don&#39;t need to pull the sha-nay-nay.

charli
02-01-2005, 11:40 PM
because i see a lot of women who say that they are strong black sistas and they are not that at all. they consider being strong as with be loud, ignorant and having the ability to cuss in public, do the gooseneck with the hand on the hip letting the backbone slip.

I agree. And many times those women will let the man drive their car, pick them up from work, treat them like a whore behind closed doors, but still say they are "strong" black women.


I cannot and will not sit around and be treated like junk by some man who cannot respect nor handle my womanhood

A man who goes out and works so he can take care of his family so the mother can CHOOSE to be there with her children goes a LOOOOOONNNG way. Especially these days when black men are too willing to let a woman be the head of the household or expect her to work just as hard and still come home and cook and care for children and women want to be home but can&#39;t.

Portae
02-02-2005, 01:01 AM
Personally, I think we should stop raising our girls with a focus on how they should tailor their behavior for a possible mate. Boys definitely aren&#39;t raised that way. We should teach our young ladies to be self-sufficient, independent individuals who can make THEMSELVES happy. If that attracts a man, cool. If not, who cares?

Peaches
02-02-2005, 02:14 AM
I think that Charli hit the nail on the head when she used the word "choose". It&#39;s not either/or, it&#39;s about having the freedom to choose what you want to do and be respected for that.

"Either you stay at home and be submissive or you can&#39;t be my wife". That&#39;s a control tactic. Most of the men doing that are byching about these women behind their backs while they&#39;re sleeping around. "She has no motivation. All she does is sits around, eats, and she won&#39;t help me with the bills. She does nothing to better herself. She&#39;s lazy" Then they&#39;ll say that they respect a women who has a job and her own place. If they had a woman like that, they wouldn&#39;t know what the hell to do with her.

A lot of men will say that they want submissive women because they&#39;re obnoxious men, not because they want little sweet Alice the Betty Crocker expert. Girls should be taught to discern and just be themselves, love themselves for who and what they are, and expect the men in their lives to do the same.


Originally posted by Portae Posted Today@ 10:01 PM
Personally, I think we should stop raising our girls with a focus on how they should tailor their behavior for a possible mate. Boys definitely aren&#39;t raised that way. We should teach our young ladies to be self-sufficient, independent individuals who can make THEMSELVES happy. If that attracts a man, cool. If not, who cares?
Precisely.

MissMick
02-02-2005, 02:26 AM
I think that people mistake strong black women as those argumentative crazy bytches with absolutely nothing better to do than to argue with her man about dumb stuff. That is NOT, and I repeat it is NOT a strong black woman. You can be a strong black woman and be submissive. I think that being submissive is part of being strong. You are saying that you are secure enough in yourself and your man that you can allow him to run the show. I will teach my daughter that if the man is not worthy of her submissiveness (is that a word?), have the strength to leave his @$$. Same way I was raised.

MizBrowniMD
02-02-2005, 02:29 AM
Originally posted by Portae@Feb 1 2005, 09:01 PM
Personally, I think we should stop raising our girls with a focus on how they should tailor their behavior for a possible mate. Boys definitely aren&#39;t raised that way. We should teach our young ladies to be self-sufficient, independent individuals who can make THEMSELVES happy. If that attracts a man, cool. If not, who cares?

698946

I just had to bold the above text for emphasis&#39;s sake... ;) To emphasize no cussin&#39; Sha-nay-nay&#39;s.
:smil3f72836ee752e: :smil3f72836ee752e:

ETA: Now this is how I was raised. Partially by a single mother (early- to mid-adolescence) and partially by conservative Southern grandparents (childhood to early adolescence). Nonetheless, I am very close to my grandparents to this day, and even when I was with my mother. They always emphasized that a woman should be self-sufficient so that if push came to shove--if there was no man to take care of her--she would not be out in the world, floundering around unable to care for herself.
Funny thing is, I have been told by many men that this is 1) intimidating and 2) I make them feel as though I dont need them. :huh: :doh :dunno:

afrogeek
02-02-2005, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by Portae@Feb 2 2005, 04:01 AM
Personally, I think we should stop raising our girls with a focus on how they should tailor their behavior for a possible mate. Boys definitely aren&#39;t raised that way. We should teach our young ladies to be self-sufficient, independent individuals who can make THEMSELVES happy. If that attracts a man, cool. If not, who cares?

698946

:afro: What she said. :smil3f72836ee752e: :smil3f72836ee752e: :afro:

wildandkinky
02-02-2005, 11:12 AM
With every power comes a responsibility.
If you want to have a new responsibility, show you can handle the ones you already have and can handle the new one.
If you want to get a promotion at work, you have to do your job well and show you can handle the new tasks aswell.
If you want your wife to stay at home, you should have a steady income and show you can provide for 2 or more people.

Some men do not know the difference between submission and subjugation. When a woman hands over a responsibility, out of free will, to you, it&#39;s submission. When you take power over a woman by force, it&#39;s subjugation, AKA spousal abuse.

Sometimes, the most responsible decision is to hand over a responsibility. If you are colourblind, it makes sense to let someone else choose your clothes, if they are more skilled at it and have your best interest at heart. Likewise, if you have a hole in your pocket and your partner has good financial skills, it&#39;s not a bad idea to let him handle the finances.
I see nothing wrong with a bit of dependancy between spouses, as long as the choice is made out of free will. Some people get a enjoy being submitted to, and if their spouse enjoys it, good for them. Other people do not enjoy responsibilities.
For example, I used to have a teacher who preferred that his wife controls the finances, while he only gets an allowance.

I think many of the men who ask for a submissive woman, really want a woman who is rather quiet, rarely raises her voice and does not complain much. It&#39;s funny that all there traits seem to be in the vocal area.
I remember a situation where I was going to a party with a guy. He knew all the people there and I did not, I was not feeling very well. Now when I feel good i&#39;m quite outgoing and spontanious, but if not im quiet and will daydream a bit. The funny thing was that he told me all the guys at the party thought I was very sweet, cute and softnatured, probably what they saw as submissive.

There is a group of men who want the power without having the responsibility or the skills to use that power wisely. Men who want their wife to stay at home, but can not hold a well paid job, men who want to want to pick out their wife&#39;s clothes but have no taste etc. Men who lack realism tend not to be the best catches.

Then you have men who want to control a woman but do not give a hoot about her needs, they are better known as jerks or bastards.

NLight1
02-02-2005, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by Portae@Feb 1 2005, 08:01 PM
Personally, I think we should stop raising our girls with a focus on how they should tailor their behavior for a possible mate. Boys definitely aren&#39;t raised that way. We should teach our young ladies to be self-sufficient, independent individuals who can make THEMSELVES happy. If that attracts a man, cool. If not, who cares?

698946

Exactly! Co-signing with everyone else that agreed with your post! You hit the nail on the head with this post! :afro:

tran68
02-02-2005, 04:45 PM
I will teach my children submission according to the bible. They are to submit to God because (according to my beliefs) he is the highest authority. In marriage, God says that women are to submit to their husbands and that husbands are to submit to their wives. They are to submit to their spouses out of honor & respect. They are not to lay down and be anybody&#39;s doormat.

ITA

The minute a dude says "you must submit to me cause I&#39;m the maaaaan"...RUN!!! He&#39;s not in the Bible and he&#39;s not in the scripture! Men love to harp on the wives submitting but do they know THEY need to be submitting TOO???? ;)

utamu
09-12-2007, 04:05 PM
Interesting thread. A lot of the rhetoric coming from men in the black relationship angst camp contends that most black women are not raised to be submissive to men like women of other races...

Denny
09-13-2007, 02:48 AM
Preach it wildandkinky, you hit the nail on the head.
We all have elements of submission in society or else there would be chaos, unfortunately the word had a bad press for years due to abuse.
Those foolish people who abuse the word are nothing but bullies, the bible does not condone bullying of ones mate when it talks about submission, with the wife submitting its based on unconditional love from the husband and how many men measure up to that?

LaMonica
09-13-2007, 03:22 AM
I have been married for almost 11 years..(My husband will tell you 15, cause he counts our 4 dating years as marriage in his eyes)

Regarding "Submission"..my opinion has now, and always will be..

Only slaves and trained animals "submit".. And I am NEITHER

Babylon
09-13-2007, 08:32 AM
Being submissive does not mean letting someone walk all over you or doing whatever a man wants you to do!!

To me being submissive means being willing to compromise with an authority figure. I also sense a humbleness in being submissive, so imma say that being willing to compromise and having a humble demeaner adds up to being submissive. You can submit to your man and still receive the benefit of the doubt!! ;)

It seems that a lot of us sistahs just don&#39;t know how to work it anymore. Haven&#39;t been taught either.

"When a woman hands over a responsibility, out of free will, to you, it&#39;s submission."

WildandKinky basically summed it up here.



I&#39;ve always wondered why some women feel the two are completely separate or complete opposites. I feel that you can be both. One of the words in the definition of submissive (submit) is yield. I feel that you can yield to certain things, be humble and modest and all that and still be a strong black woman. There are roles that males and females have in a relationship, both public and private roles. You gotta let a man be a man. I for one would never call my man out or correct him (and definitely never ridicule him) in public. That&#39;s just one example of things that I see on a regular basis that maybe women should take a minute to think about. There are many ways that we as females can just snip snip snip away at a man. I&#39;m secure enough to step back and submit and let him handle things, and strong enough to step up beside him when he needs help carrying the weight, and when it&#39;s right it feels so good.
You said it better than I ever could; I really didn&#39;t need to type all the rest of the stuff that I did.
By now I should know better than to post my thoughts about relationships because they are never well received , but I continue to try to voice my opinion in a nice, non-provoking manner.
[/b]

Them southernshortys sure do know how to take care of and handle a man!! I heard that North Carolina women are the best!

Somebody is listening to you. Men do have a nature and an ego that we need to lovingly be aware of.



I&#39;m sorry but most of the men I know want to be the leader. I think maybe there is this idea that being submissive means being a doormat or never having an opinion. From my observations its in a mans nature to want to lead. Having someone boss him around, tell him how to do everything, talk down to him is not appealing to most men.

Personally I think its in the manner of voicing your opinion that makes a difference. Because men need our help in making decisions but they dont need to be talked down to or treated like children. They need to know they are respected and I believe being submissive means allowing your man to be a man while also allowing you to make decisions and voice your opinion.
[/b]

Ditto!




I just had to bold the above text for emphasis&#39;s sake... ;) To emphasize no cussin&#39; Sha-nay-nay&#39;s.
:smil3f72836ee752e: :smil3f72836ee752e:

ETA: Now this is how I was raised. Partially by a single mother (early- to mid-adolescence) and partially by conservative Southern grandparents (childhood to early adolescence). Nonetheless, I am very close to my grandparents to this day, and even when I was with my mother. They always emphasized that a woman should be self-sufficient so that if push came to shove--if there was no man to take care of her--she would not be out in the world, floundering around unable to care for herself.
Funny thing is, I have been told by many men that this is 1) intimidating and 2) I make them feel as though I dont need them. :huh: :doh :dunno:
[/b]

What does being submissive have to do with self-sufficiency? :huh:



Personally, I think we should stop raising our girls with a focus on how they should tailor their behavior for a possible mate. Boys definitely aren&#39;t raised that way. We should teach our young ladies to be self-sufficient, independent individuals who can make THEMSELVES happy. If that attracts a man, cool. If not, who cares?
[/b]

I am willing to bet that most if not all the women who wholeheartedly agree with the statement above are single and have been for a long time.

Denny
09-13-2007, 11:10 AM
I am willing to bet that most if not all the women who wholeheartedly agree with the statement above are single and have been for a long time.
[/b]
please clarify your statement. If you mean that women who are not prepared to give and take cos they so independant are bound to be alone? That goes for anyone whether male or female, sensible mature people know that a successful relationship takes both parties to work together. That is something that families should teach boys and as well as girls.

Jina
09-13-2007, 12:27 PM
I was reading the thread about the dating scene for Black Women in Asia. Many of the posters said that the Japanese and American/ Foreign men liked the submissiveness of the Japanese women. It seems that there is a preference for submissive women by most men in most cultures. For example, we often hear the stereotype that Black men date women who are not Black, because they will do what they want them to.

This is not an interracial dating issue....

But I am curious to know...... if the majority of men in the world prefer a submissive woman, then why not teach all women to be submissive?

(I am not advocating or disagreeing with submissive women, just putting the question out there).
[/b]



They did, in the past. But women broke free of that with the suffrage movement and the 60&#39;s movements.

You can only keep someone down for so long.
[/b]

Bingo.

chronicity
09-13-2007, 01:32 PM
To me being submissive means being willing to compromise with an authority figure. I also sense a humbleness in being submissive, so imma say that being willing to compromise and having a humble demeaner adds up to being submissive. You can submit to your man and still receive the benefit of the doubt!! ;) [/b]

I&#39;m of the school of thought that a true leader doesn&#39;t ask or demand to lead...they just do it. A take charge attitude coupled with competency and a respect for others is what makes a person a leader. Not a penis. Now, I will gladly accept a man as my leader if he can lead without me feeling like I&#39;m surrendering my voice, my brain, or my pride. I&#39;d put my trust in him because I want to, not because it&#39;s what is expected of me, and definitely not so that he call feel "like a man" at the expense of my own sense of self. I&#39;m not about to submit to anyone just because he&#39;s a man and I&#39;m a woman. I&#39;m seeking a partner, not an authority figure.

Perhaps the real problem is that too many men want women to treat them like leaders, but they really aren&#39;t willing to step up and lead. They just want the honor of being the head without working for it. Go get an education, make a decent income, carry yourself like someone who is grown, take care of your business without someone telling you what to do, show some initiative and set some goals, and then we&#39;ll see if you deserve to dominate someone else. Until then, I don&#39;t wanna hear no whining about black women not being submissive. Because that&#39;s not really where the problem is.

Babylon
09-13-2007, 03:51 PM
please clarify your statement. If you mean that women who are not prepared to give and take cos they so independant are bound to be alone? That goes for anyone whether male or female, sensible mature people know that a successful relationship takes both parties to work together. That is something that families should teach boys and as well as girls.
[/b]

I should have been more specific. Women with a hardcore "ef" him attititude tend to not have a man in their life. So far I have only witnessed about two who I feel might fit the bill.

frau
09-15-2007, 12:19 AM
i&#39;ve only read the first 3 posts.
i was the submissive woman.
what did that get me?
single parenthood and heartache.
submit to your submitting husband.

our culture doesn&#39;t allow us to be submissive women. we&#39;ll either be taken advantage of or seen as weak or naive.

Scribetastic
09-15-2007, 10:53 AM
I&#39;m of the school of thought that a true leader doesn&#39;t ask or demand to lead...they just do it. A take charge attitude coupled with competency and a respect for others is what makes a person a leader. Not a penis. Now, I will gladly accept a man as my leader if he can lead without me feeling like I&#39;m surrendering my voice, my brain, or my pride. I&#39;d put my trust in him because I want to, not because it&#39;s what is expected of me, and definitely not so that he call feel "like a man" at the expense of my own sense of self. I&#39;m not about to submit to anyone just because he&#39;s a man and I&#39;m a woman. I&#39;m seeking a partner, not an authority figure.

Perhaps the real problem is that too many men want women to treat them like leaders, but they really aren&#39;t willing to step up and lead. They just want the honor of being the head without working for it. Go get an education, make a decent income, carry yourself like someone who is grown, take care of your business without someone telling you what to do, show some initiative and set some goals, and then we&#39;ll see if you deserve to dominate someone else. Until then, I don&#39;t wanna hear no whining about black women not being submissive. Because that&#39;s not really where the problem is.
[/b]
Pretty much. I just had a friend of mine try to go on about how "hard" things are for men. It was basically the blame things on feminists &#39;cause now women are more assertive and are visibly harder on men. That&#39;s true, but just because one girl gets on your case for holding the door open for her don&#39;t put it on all women. Write that snappish b%^tch off as high strung and move on.

I asked him to try to be a woman and then get back to me regarding how hard it is to be a man.

I went on to say that all women aren&#39;t the same. Some of us are hard, but there are some that appreciate having the door opened too. Anyway, no, I&#39;ll continue to be assertive. To be honest, it&#39;s usually looks that draws them to you anyway ;) (just in case someone uptight wants to jump on me...that looks thing was a joke...kinda)

Trenellm
09-15-2007, 05:25 PM
I think a couple should yield to one another. It&#39; all about compromise. My husband and I are co-captains on this fantastic voyage.

afrogeek
09-16-2007, 09:06 AM
I think that Charli hit the nail on the head when she used the word "choose". It&#39;s not either/or, it&#39;s about having the freedom to choose what you want to do and be respected for that.

"Either you stay at home and be submissive or you can&#39;t be my wife". That&#39;s a control tactic. Most of the men doing that are byching about these women behind their backs while they&#39;re sleeping around. "She has no motivation. All she does is sits around, eats, and she won&#39;t help me with the bills. She does nothing to better herself. She&#39;s lazy" Then they&#39;ll say that they respect a women who has a job and her own place. If they had a woman like that, they wouldn&#39;t know what the hell to do with her.

A lot of men will say that they want submissive women because they&#39;re obnoxious men, not because they want little sweet Alice the Betty Crocker expert. Girls should be taught to discern and just be themselves, love themselves for who and what they are, and expect the men in their lives to do the same.
[/b] :clap: :clap:

Originally posted by Portae feb 5@ 2007
Personally, I think we should stop raising our girls with a focus on how they should tailor their behavior for a possible mate. Boys definitely aren&#39;t raised that way. We should teach our young ladies to be self-sufficient, independent individuals who can make THEMSELVES happy. If that attracts a man, cool. If not, who cares? :clap: :clap:
:afro: Both of y&#39;all get outta my head. There ain&#39;t enough room in here! :afro:

FoxxyLocs
09-16-2007, 10:01 AM
to me submission is not a bad thing. to so many women submission = weak, doormat, etc. and that&#39;s really not what it&#39;s about. submission is about trust and respect. i can submit to my husband and allow him to be the head of our household because i know that he respects me as a woman and he respects my opinion. i know that i can trust him to make good decisions for our family and that in any major decision he will seek my advice. and if he knows that he doesn&#39;t know what he&#39;s doing or that i&#39;m better equipped to handle a situation, he will step back and let me do my thing, rather than trying to do it himself.

i had to tone down my attitude, and my sarcasm and stop being so quick to snap on him at the drop of a hat, and it was easy for me to do that because he earned my respect.

i was raised to be completely independent and self sufficient and i will raise my daughters that way. but i will also let them know that when you find a man who is worthy of your love, trust, and respect, it is ok to to compromise, and it&#39;s ok to let your guard down and not be in complete control of every little thing. i will teach my sons that they have to earn their place as the head of the household and they should never expect any woman to just lay down and allow herself to be walked all over and any woman who does is probably not what he wants anyway.

Trenellm
09-16-2007, 10:23 AM
i had to tone down my attitude, and my sarcasm and stop being so quick to snap on him at the drop of a hat, and it was easy for me to do that because he earned my respect.

[/b]
Bu that is just something a person should do in day to day life, not b/c they are a woman and they are married. That&#39;s just being a nice person...

And in you post you said compromise. again, to me that&#39;s what marriage is. My husbands does not have the final say every single time we have a disagreement. Sometimes I say "Ok, we&#39;ll do it your way" Sometimes he says it. Not saying that you do this, but I cannot imagine spending the rest of my life with a man who&#39;s word is law. As a matter of fact, I WILL NOT spend the rest of my life with a man who thinks his word is law.

I will teach my children (I have a baby boy now) to be smart, caring, level headed people. You raise a good person, you&#39;ve raised a good spouse for someone else regardless of gender.

FoxxyLocs
09-16-2007, 11:00 AM
Bu that is just something a person should do in day to day life, not b/c they are a woman and they are married. That&#39;s just being a nice person...

And in you post you said compromise. again, to me that&#39;s what marriage is. My husbands does not have the final say every single time we have a disagreement. Sometimes I say "Ok, we&#39;ll do it your way" Sometimes he says it. Not saying that you do this, but I cannot imagine spending the rest of my life with a man who&#39;s word is law. As a matter of fact, I WILL NOT spend the rest of my life with a man who thinks his word is law.[/b]

i never said it was about gender. of course because i am a woman and he is my husband i will speak from that perspective, but i also spoke about a man&#39;s role in my post. it is precisely because i&#39;m married (not because i&#39;m a woman) that i make considerations for my husband that i would never make for anyone else. where someone else might get cursed out, my husband doesn&#39;t because i love him and i don&#39;t want to hurt his feelings. so i find nicer ways to get my point across, and he does the same.

i know u said the second part of your statement was not directed at me, but again, being submissive has nothing to do with accepting everything your husband says as law. it&#39;s not about being a doormat, or letting him win every argument. maybe it&#39;s just that word that you don&#39;t like, but i think you and i are basically saying the same thing.

LadyBug13
09-16-2007, 11:48 AM
Personally, I think we should stop raising our girls with a focus on how they should tailor their behavior for a possible mate. Boys definitely aren&#39;t raised that way. We should teach our young ladies to be self-sufficient, independent individuals who can make THEMSELVES happy. If that attracts a man, cool. If not, who cares?
[/b]

:clap:



I&#39;m of the school of thought that a true leader doesn&#39;t ask or demand to lead...they just do it. A take charge attitude coupled with competency and a respect for others is what makes a person a leader. Not a penis. Now, I will gladly accept a man as my leader if he can lead without me feeling like I&#39;m surrendering my voice, my brain, or my pride. I&#39;d put my trust in him because I want to, not because it&#39;s what is expected of me, and definitely not so that he call feel "like a man" at the expense of my own sense of self. I&#39;m not about to submit to anyone just because he&#39;s a man and I&#39;m a woman. I&#39;m seeking a partner, not an authority figure.

Perhaps the real problem is that too many men want women to treat them like leaders, but they really aren&#39;t willing to step up and lead. They just want the honor of being the head without working for it. Go get an education, make a decent income, carry yourself like someone who is grown, take care of your business without someone telling you what to do, show some initiative and set some goals, and then we&#39;ll see if you deserve to dominate someone else. Until then, I don&#39;t wanna hear no whining about black women not being submissive. Because that&#39;s not really where the problem is.
[/b]

:clap:

LaMonica
09-16-2007, 12:22 PM
I first want to say..that I mean no disrespect. Truly I don&#39;t , but I don&#39;t want what I&#39;m about to say to be taken out of context or misconstrued. I just want you all to truly THINK about my my point.

Being submissive IS about you being a female. To those who believe that it&#39;s NOT about GENDER..think again. For the simple and plain stated fact that it is THE WIFE who is EXPECTED to "SUBMIT".. men are NOT asked this in their vows. The traditional marriage vows do NOT ask men if they will "OBEY"..but it is in a woman&#39;s vows of marriage.I think many of you ladies have "21st century" and "Women&#39;s Right&#39;s" thinking mentalities. To you the idea of "Submission" IS an actual "choice". But you have forgotten that marriage was NOT built of "love , family, and sharing of one&#39;s lives. Marriage was a form of enslavement.Women and young girls were used as tools to barter with. Women were seen as property. Remember.. it was NOT a choice for women of centuries pass. I think most of us tend to forget this.

Now..as I stated before. I have been married almost 11 years, and we&#39;ve been together 15. I submit to "NO ONE"..because no one is the "Master" of me. I defer to my husband. I compromise with him. I admit that is hard to do..cause I am a selfish person..And being with a wonderful man has helped me work on that some. I feel comfortable letting him take the lead..because I know I can count on him.

I advise all of you ladies because We have all seen that men are NOT to be totally relied upon. We have watched , in regards to our mothers, sisters, aunts, and ourselves , men make promises , only to break them..live on us and not take care of the financial responsibilities we expect of them, make children only to abandon them,and hurting and abusing us after promising to love us.

Just remember a REAL man will NEVER have to ask or demand for submission from his woman..cause if he is on his job in every way to begin with..we will always be glad to let him take the lead. Only ego maniacal macho FOOLS think there penis puts them in charge.

chronicity
09-16-2007, 12:56 PM
to me submission is not a bad thing. to so many women submission = weak, doormat, etc. and that&#39;s really not what it&#39;s about. submission is about trust and respect. i can submit to my husband and allow him to be the head of our household because i know that he respects me as a woman and he respects my opinion. i know that i can trust him to make good decisions for our family and that in any major decision he will seek my advice. and if he knows that he doesn&#39;t know what he&#39;s doing or that i&#39;m better equipped to handle a situation, he will step back and let me do my thing, rather than trying to do it himself.

i had to tone down my attitude, and my sarcasm and stop being so quick to snap on him at the drop of a hat, and it was easy for me to do that because he earned my respect. [/b]

Gotta say that inclusion of your 2nd paragraph suggests that you perceive non-submissiveness to be hot-tempered and rude. Just as you say being submissive is not akin to being a doormat, NOT being submissive doesn&#39;t mean smacking your lips, rolling your eyes, and being otherwise disrepectful.

The things that you do for your husband in terms of respecting his opinion and skills...do you not expect him to behave the same way towards you? Everything that you said in your first paragraph, I could imagine that your husband writing the same thing about you. So why do you consider that submission? People who submit to someone else aren&#39;t just compromising and being polite; by definition, they are giving control of their lives to someone else. A submissive person lets another person dictate their choices and goes along with whatever decisions are made without argument.

Queencece
09-16-2007, 01:16 PM
I will teach my children submission according to the bible. They are to submit to God because (according to my beliefs) he is the highest authority. In marriage, God says that women are to submit to their husbands and that husbands are to submit to their wives. They are to submit to their spouses out of honor & respect. They are not to lay down and be anybody&#39;s doormat.
[/b]

:yes: :clap:

FoxxyLocs
09-16-2007, 01:25 PM
@ chronicity - that&#39;s not what i said, and it&#39;s not what i meant. i was never the neck rolling, lip smacking type, nor am i rude to others. i&#39;m pretty sure i said that already. i also said that my husband respects my opinions and defers to me in some cases. BOTH parties are to submit to EACH OTHER. the husband is to love and cherish his wife and the wife is to respect and honor her husband.

Denny
09-16-2007, 02:52 PM
"A submissive person lets another person dictate their choices and goes along with whatever decisions are made without argument."

I disagree with this definition, did you not submit to the authority of your employer, in the past your teachers, the federal government? However if an issue arose that you disagreed with I&#39;m sure your voice was heard (or perhaps it was not)? The prefix sub means &#39;to be under&#39; as in submarine - and in life sometimes we are under someone&#39;s authority or hierarchy that does not mean the person has carte blance to walk all over you. And said person if they knew that their responsibilites are would not expect it.

KhymFree
09-16-2007, 02:55 PM
I first want to say..that I mean no disrespect. Truly I don&#39;t , but I don&#39;t want what I&#39;m about to say to be taken out of context or misconstrued. I just want you all to truly THINK about my my point.

Being submissive IS about you being a female. To those who believe that it&#39;s NOT about GENDER..think again. For the simple and plain stated fact that it is THE WIFE who is EXPECTED to "SUBMIT".. men are NOT asked this in their vows. The traditional marriage vows do NOT ask men if they will "OBEY"..but it is in a woman&#39;s vows of marriage.I think many of you ladies have "21st century" and "Women&#39;s Right&#39;s" thinking mentalities. To you the idea of "Submission" IS an actual "choice". But you have forgotten that marriage was NOT built of "love , family, and sharing of one&#39;s lives. Marriage was a form of enslavement.Women and young girls were used as tools to barter with. Women were seen as property. Remember.. it was NOT a choice for women of centuries pass. I think most of us tend to forget this.

Now..as I stated before. I have been married almost 11 years, and we&#39;ve been together 15. I submit to "NO ONE"..because no one is the "Master" of me. I defer to my husband. I compromise with him. I admit that is hard to do..cause I am a selfish person..And being with a wonderful man has helped me work on that some. I feel comfortable letting him take the lead..because I know I can count on him.

I advise all of you ladies because We have all seen that men are NOT to be totally relied upon. We have watched , in regards to our mothers, sisters, aunts, and ourselves , men make promises , only to break them..live on us and not take care of the financial responsibilities we expect of them, make children only to abandon them,and hurting and abusing us after promising to love us.

Just remember a REAL man will NEVER have to ask or demand for submission from his woman..cause if he is on his job in every way to begin with..we will always be glad to let him take the lead. Only ego maniacal macho FOOLS think there penis puts them in charge.
[/b]


HELLO! Well said. ^_^

chinani
09-16-2007, 03:13 PM
No, I won&#39;t. I&#39;m currently childless (and will be for about 10 more years), but I&#39;m going to teach my children to be wonderful human beings. I&#39;m going to teach them what it is to be a wonderful human being and how to become (and remain) one. I&#39;ll also teach them a host of other life skills etc but "submission" will not be one of them.

I don&#39;t know if the majority of men prefer submissive women are not, but the above still applies.

LaMonica you said "the traditional marriage" vows... I&#39;m wondered, who&#39;s tradition are you speaking of? If a person is not from that tradition is she freed from "submission"? I&#39;m genuinely curious.

LaMonica
09-16-2007, 03:38 PM
LaMonica you said "the traditional marriage" vows... I&#39;m wondered, who&#39;s tradition are you speaking of? If a person is not from that tradition is she freed from "submission"? I&#39;m genuinely curious.
[/b]

That&#39;s a GREAT POINT Chinani. Beacause I&#39;m not big on tradition, and I am completely against and find ALL religions repugnant and evil.. I&#39;ll just go by the GAZILLION weddings I&#39;ve had to sit through. Most of the vows , be it a Jewish, Catholic, or Christian wedding, have all ..IN MY OPINION , given off the tone and context that it is "THE MAN" who is to be submitted to, and whom a woman must "OBEY".

Now..many women, including myself, choose to write our own vows , cause we won&#39;t be subjected to to an ancient arcane way of thinking. I am free of the word "Submission", cause as I said in my very first post.

Only slaves and trained animals "Submit"..and I am Neither.To submit, in the end, no matter how pretty the spin puts on it, means to have an Authority figure, or a MASTER.
And no one is the master over me.

chronicity
09-16-2007, 03:58 PM
"A submissive person lets another person dictate their choices and goes along with whatever decisions are made without argument."

I disagree with this definition, did you not submit to the authority of your employer, in the past your teachers, the federal government? However if an issue arose that you disagreed with I&#39;m sure your voice was heard (or perhaps it was not)? [/b]

Employers give me money to do contractually agreed upon things. If they request that I do things outside of that contact, I&#39;m more than free to leave. Don&#39;t see where the submission comes from in this arrangement. Teachers are there to teach and only represent authority figures unless we&#39;re talking about children, in which case, my point exactly. When women are expected to be submissive, they are really being told to behave like docile children. That&#39;s not my bag.


The prefix sub means &#39;to be under&#39; as in submarine - and in life sometimes we are under someone&#39;s authority or hierarchy that does not mean the person has carte blance to walk all over you. And said person if they knew that their responsibilites are would not expect it.
[/b]

So women are under men in the hieracrchy of things? This idea doesn&#39;t trouble you at all?

Babylon
09-16-2007, 06:32 PM
The roles of men and women in a relationship, specifically marriage are usually dictated by the culture.
I have to admit that I never grew up in a house hold were there was a man constantly around. Therefore I was never been afforded the chance to witness the relationship of a man and woman interacting in a marriage/relationship. Truthfully, I really don&#39;t know what my role should be as a married woman (I&#39;m not married).

I have been told that there is no such thing as an "equal" marriage by a couple of people who were married. They informed me that marriage is never 50/50%. It may be 30/70, 90/10, 40/60 but never 50%.

What I think of when I hear some of the replys on this post is that some of us think that a marriage can be 50/50. I&#39;ve never been married so I can&#39;t really say.

Back to the roles of men and women, all I can recall is what I was taught from the bible. I have observed some situtations but none I would call exceptional and would want to emulate.

Even though I am quite inexperienced and havent&#39; had first hand opportunity to observe what a marriage is or should be like I do feel I can judge between what makes sense to me and what doesn&#39;t.

A man is more aggressive than a woman and I assume that this aspect of himself would require some type of consideration on the part of the woman. Considering the fact that a man is physically stronger than a woman I would think that we as women would also take this into consideration. A man has a nature that is very different from ours; Shouldn&#39;t we take this into consideration also and act accordingly?

I believe that we must first understand our different natures as men and women before we can really understand submission, what it is, why it is needed, when it is required and so forth to have an intellectual convo about it, especially for those of us who are not married and have never been, like myself.

Oxford American Dictionary-copywrite 1979
Heald Colleges Edition

sub~mit v. (sub-mis-sion, sub-mit-ting) 1. To yield oneself to the authority or control of another, to surrender. 2. To subject (a person or a thing) to a process. 3. To present for consideration or decisions.

Hadasah
09-16-2007, 06:41 PM
Considering the fact that a man is physically stronger than a woman I would think that we as women would also take this into consideration. A man has a nature that is very different from ours; Shouldn&#39;t we take this into consideration also and act accordingly?[/b]

What exactly do you mean? How would we show that we&#39;re taking all of that into consideration?
I don&#39;t care if a guy is physically stronger than I am if I don&#39;t agree with what he says. I&#39;m all about compromising. If he isn&#39;t going to consider my POV then I see no reason to do the same for him.

Babylon
09-16-2007, 06:52 PM
What exactly do you mean? How would we show that we&#39;re taking all of that into consideration?
I don&#39;t care if a guy is physically stronger than I am if I don&#39;t agree with what he says. I&#39;m all about compromising. If he isn&#39;t going to consider my POV then I see no reason to do the same for him.
[/b]

Whose saying a womans&#39; point of view should not be taken into consideration? Who do you know agrees with everything one person says all the time??? What is wrong with compromising?

If your man won&#39;t even consider you POV I would have to wonder why you are with him in the first place.

LaMonica
09-16-2007, 07:13 PM
Back to the roles of men and women, all I can recall is what I was taught from the bible. [/b]

Okay, for someone like me, this does not play into my way of thinking, cause this is not something I believe in. And I usually object when religion is , IMO , not really being forcedon me..but that a certain expectation of society expects me to abide by, just because others do.




A man is more aggressive than a woman and I assume that this aspect of himself would require some type of consideration on the part of the woman. Considering the fact that a man is physically stronger than a woman I would think that we as women would also take this into consideration. [/b]

Okay..this ideology may have made sense in a more primitive time, when hunting for food was a regular thing. But in today&#39;s world, a man&#39;s physical prowess , aggressiveness and strength only matters on the sports field most of the time. The argument that physical strength as the premise for who "RULES" in a relationship is just ridiculous.We should be in a relationship, not a "Power Struggle".



Oxford American Dictionary-copywrite 1979
Heald Colleges Edition

sub~mit v. (sub-mis-sion, sub-mit-ting) 1. To yield oneself to the authority or control of another, to surrender. 2. To subject (a person or a thing) to a process. 3. To present for consideration or decisions.
[/b]

Not for me.

Hadasah
09-16-2007, 07:24 PM
Whose saying a womans&#39; point of view should not be taken into consideration? Who do you know agrees with everything one person says all the time??? What is wrong with compromising?

If your man won&#39;t even consider you POV I would have to wonder why you are with him in the first place.[/b]

I think I may have misunderstood what you originally meant. :blush: I should have just stuck with my question.

Babylon
09-16-2007, 07:39 PM
Okay, for someone like me, this does not play into my way of thinking, cause this is not something I believe in. And I usually object when religion is , IMO , not really being forcedon me..but that a certain expectation of society expects me to abide by, just because others do.
Okay..this ideology may have made sense in a more primitive time, when hunting for food was a regular thing. But in today&#39;s world, a man&#39;s physical prowess , aggressiveness and strength only matters on the sports field most of the time. The argument that physical strength as the premise for who "RULES" in a relationship is just ridiculous.We should be in a relationship, not a "Power Struggle".
Not for me.
[/b]


I think you misunderstand what I mean too. I&#39;m talking about my experience concerning the subject, not actually what I believe. I was giving a general example of what I had to go on. Yea I know not much.

If you are in a power struggle with your mate than you need to get out of that relationship.

Sweetheart, men are still hunters in a broad sense.... will always be. Plus i don&#39;t won&#39;t to push a man so far as to get knocked upside my head.. damned the courts and the police. I&#39;d rather rely on the knowledge that I cannot beat up a grown man and not take him there. And of course I don&#39;t deal with abusive men but I damned sure ain&#39;t gonna tempt one to want to be.... A mans physical strenght is only one difference between us that we should consider as women, I did not say it was a PREMISE for who RULES in a relationship. I never even alluded to that.

GalaxyGirl2012
09-16-2007, 07:53 PM
in my opinion gender roles fall under NURTURE rather than nature. for the most part little boys are socialized to be more aggressive and outgoing than little girls are. people tend to throw their little boy babies in the air and catch them more than they do with little girls. people tend to excuse rough housing and play fighting with boys because "boys will be boys" more so than they will with their little girls.

as far being afraid to speak up to a man because you&#39;re afraid of being hit :unsure: thats some victim thinking right there and if you think that&#39;s what&#39;s going to happen then i&#39;m almost certain that&#39;s what&#39;s going to happen because that will be the type of person you&#39;re attracting.

Peaches
09-16-2007, 08:23 PM
To each his/her own. Submit by definition means to yield to governance or authority. In my opinion, marriage is a partnership. No one should be bossing me around as long as I&#39;m also paying bills. Two intelligent adults should be able to discuss matters and make decisions without such pettiness.

britni
09-16-2007, 09:13 PM
To each his/her own. Submit by definition means to yield to governance or authority. In my opinion, marriage is a partnership. No one should be bossing me around as long as I&#39;m also paying bills. Two intelligent adults should be able to discuss matters and make decisions without such pettiness.
[/b]
WORD!!!! :D

LaMonica
09-17-2007, 03:59 AM
I think you misunderstand what I mean too. I&#39;m talking about my experience concerning the subject, not actually what I believe. I was giving a general example of what I had to go on. Yea I know not much.

If you are in a power struggle with your mate than you need to get out of that relationship.

Sweetheart, men are still hunters in a broad sense.... will always be. Plus i don&#39;t won&#39;t to push a man so far as to get knocked upside my head.. damned the courts and the police. I&#39;d rather rely on the knowledge that I cannot beat up a grown man and not take him there. And of course I don&#39;t deal with abusive men but I damned sure ain&#39;t gonna tempt one to want to be.... A mans physical strenght is only one difference between us that we should consider as women, I did not say it was a PREMISE for who RULES in a relationship. I never even alluded to that.
[/b]

Okay..the use of the term "Sweetheart" is quite condescending to say the least. But that&#39;s another thread.

I DID understand that you were talking about the examples that have been provided to you through life. But you are bouncing back and forth when it comes to the element of a man&#39;s physical strength. Physical STRENGTH is NOT an issue in a loving and true relationship, because a man who is NOT abusive will never USE physical strength as an element in ANY situation. If it is physical strength DOES come into play at ANY moment..then you have an abusive relationship. You can&#39;t "Make a man go upside your head"..I don&#39;t know where you learned that.

I think you have "submission" as a moral and religious duty completely confused with the fear of physical injury.

Denny
09-17-2007, 03:32 PM
Employers give me money to do contractually agreed upon things. If they request that I do things outside of that contact, I&#39;m more than free to leave. Don&#39;t see where the submission comes from in this arrangement. Teachers are there to teach and only represent authority figures unless we&#39;re talking about children, in which case, my point exactly. When women are expected to be submissive, they are really being told to behave like docile children. That&#39;s not my bag.
So women are under men in the hieracrchy of things? This idea doesn&#39;t trouble you at all?
[/b]

Sure your hired by an employer and part of your contractual arrangement is being willing to defer or to submit to your bosses authority, if one does not like how the workplace works then one can be selfemployed and be thier own boss but the point I am making is WE all submit to another person or persons in life without even realising, submitting does not mean being a dumb animal and doing whatever your told. Just because people abuse the word does not mean the word or the concept is bad. People abuse love but no one goes are around saying they don&#39;t want love in their life (if they do they have issues and are not considered psychologically healthy). So if I was married would I submit to my husband, sure when its warrented and I would expect a real man to be willing to do the same at the relevant occasion.

Trenellm
09-17-2007, 03:58 PM
I&#39;m trying to figure out if we are making the same points.

Are *you* saying submisssion works BOTH ways

or

It&#39;s the wifes duty to submit to her husband. (he doesn&#39;t have to)

Babylon
09-17-2007, 05:53 PM
Okay..the use of the term "Sweetheart" is quite condescending to say the least. But that&#39;s another thread.

I DID understand that you were talking about the examples that have been provided to you through life. But you are bouncing back and forth when it comes to the element of a man&#39;s physical strength. Physical STRENGTH is NOT an issue in a loving and true relationship, because a man who is NOT abusive will never USE physical strength as an element in ANY situation. If it is physical strength DOES come into play at ANY moment..then you have an abusive relationship. You can&#39;t "Make a man go upside your head"..I don&#39;t know where you learned that.

I think you have "submission" as a moral and religious duty completely confused with the fear of physical injury.
[/b]

You still don&#39;t understand what I am saying. You keep picking my post apart and attacking what you seem to think I am refering too when I am painting the broad picture. I&#39;m not pointing anything out in particular; I was concerned with the whole picture.

Maybe we should ask women of other cultures what they think of the concept of "submitting" in a relationship as far as the women is concerned. I think it would better help us define it for ourselves if we were able to get an outside point of view.



I&#39;m trying to figure out if we are making the same points.

Are *you* saying submisssion works BOTH ways

or

It&#39;s the wifes duty to submit to her husband. (he doesn&#39;t have to)
[/b]

It is hard to put the first question in perspective because, I for one don&#39;t believe that relationships can be 50/50%. Who is going to end up submitting most of the time? I don&#39;t know. Which ever one is the strongest I guess.

I don&#39;t exactly agree that a man "doesn&#39;t have to" submit and it is simply the wife&#39;s duty.

LaMonica
09-18-2007, 03:07 PM
You still don&#39;t understand what I am saying. You keep picking my post apart and attacking what you seem to think I am refering too when I am painting the broad picture. I&#39;m not pointing anything out in particular; I was concerned with the whole picture.

Maybe we should ask women of other cultures what they think of the concept of "submitting" in a relationship as far as the women is concerned. I think it would better help us define it for ourselves if we were able to get an outside point of view.
It is hard to put the first question in perspective because, I for one don&#39;t believe that relationships can be 50/50%. Who is going to end up submitting most of the time? I don&#39;t know. Which ever one is the strongest I guess.

I don&#39;t exactly agree that a man "doesn&#39;t have to" submit and it is simply the wife&#39;s duty.
[/b]

Okay...Just for the record..I am NOT attacking anything. I&#39;m not picking anything apart. I am simply doing something called "giving a counter point" to yours.

I understand that the whole idea of "Submission" seems in your mind to be "subjective" depending on the culture. But I personally don&#39;t see it that way. There a some things that are just basic in society. And how we categorize people and their roles through out mankind still resonates is my point.It&#39;s real simple...When you are born, you are human. Then you are male- or female...your race, and class all come after. So before we had racism, and classicism..all societies had SEXISM and what was considered ..THE WOMAN&#39;S place. No matter how far and wide you spread through human history.

My point is..I can&#39;t say how any other cultures have evolved , but my own. And the subjugation of women is just what it is. And the idea of submission is a part of that.

To each his own as Peaches said.

chronicity
09-18-2007, 04:39 PM
Sure your hired by an employer and part of your contractual arrangement is being willing to defer or to submit to your bosses authority, if one does not like how the workplace works then one can be selfemployed and be thier own boss but the point I am making is WE all submit to another person or persons in life without even realising, submitting does not mean being a dumb animal and doing whatever your told.[/b]

Even if this is true, so what? Prisoners submit to their captors, too. Does that mean women should be jumping on board the submission train? A situation doesn&#39;t have to be abusive in order to have bothersome implications. I&#39;m not saying a submissive person is begging to be walked over.

The question is why would anyone want to make their gender the reason why they are supposed to be submissive in a relationship. I agree with LaMonica; I see an attempt here to prettify the word "submit" to make it look less like what it is. The concept came to be in a time when marriage was more about property and ownership, not partnership.


So if I was married would I submit to my husband, sure when its warrented and I would expect a real man to be willing to do the same at the relevant occasion.[/b]

This is partnership, not submission. The reason I say this is because no one would ever think of a man who sometimes defers to his wife and listens to her respectfully as being submissive. Yet, women will say that they submit to their husband for doing these same things.

FoxxyLocs
09-18-2007, 06:12 PM
IMO there is a big difference between what God expects from me with respect to my marriage and what "traditional" religions or cultures or whatever believe is "a woman&#39;s place"

God&#39;s commands for men and women in marriage are based on love, not dominance or power struggles. because of that i have no problem submitting to my husband. do i believe that i am inferior to him - no, nor do i believe that in society men should dominate women. all men are not fit to lead, but i chose my husband for a reason and i do feel that he has his place in our household and i have mine.

Denny
09-23-2007, 07:50 AM
Even if this is true, so what? Prisoners submit to their captors, too. Does that mean women should be jumping on board the submission train? A situation doesn&#39;t have to be abusive in order to have bothersome implications. I&#39;m not saying a submissive person is begging to be walked over.

The question is why would anyone want to make their gender the reason why they are supposed to be submissive in a relationship. I agree with LaMonica; I see an attempt here to prettify the word "submit" to make it look less like what it is. The concept came to be in a time when marriage was more about property and ownership, not partnership.
This is partnership, not submission. The reason I say this is because no one would ever think of a man who sometimes defers to his wife and listens to her respectfully as being submissive. Yet, women will say that they submit to their husband for doing these same things.
[/b]

No one is prettfying the word you choose to see the word as negative and thus your examples are negative I choose to see the word as just a word and like all words can be abused or used correctly. I do not see the word submission in marriage only related to females. Maybe some do thats their life. Do you think the word &#39;marriage&#39; is a bad word since as you say back in the day it was more about property and owenership in some cultures if not all?