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Nappy_Rogue
02-26-2005, 01:38 AM
Are all dark skin folks (Australia, New Guinea, India, Indonesia, SE Asia, etc) black?
Every time I see one on TV from one of these countries, I think they are black like me (AA's), with obvious lines to and from Africa because of their skin color and some have black features.

MizBrowniMD
02-26-2005, 02:52 AM
I have wondered about the complexion similarities in people from the countries/continents you listed above. Especially those people from New Guinea, Samoa, SE Asia and Australia. A lot of those folks have phenotypically Black features as well! I am not too sure about East Indians, though. I think they just come in various shades, period. :dunno: Never thought of them as having a "more African" lineage based on complexion alone. But with folks from the 4 regions I listed?? Talk about things that make you go "hmmm...." Funny thing is the Maori and Samoans I have inquired about this deny having African roots. Is it a case of folks not "wanting to claim Black"? Or do they truly not have African lineage? I wanna know if anyone else has some info on this, too.

iwi_maha77
02-26-2005, 04:06 AM
Originally posted by MizBrowniMD@Feb 26 2005, 03:52 PM
I have wondered about the complexion similarities in people from the countries/continents you listed above. Especially those people from New Guinea, Samoa, SE Asia and Australia. A lot of those folks have phenotypically Black features as well! I am not too sure about East Indians, though. I think they just come in various shades, period. :dunno: Never thought of them as having a "more African" lineage based on complexion alone. But with folks from the 4 regions I listed?? Talk about things that make you go "hmmm...." Funny thing is the Maori and Samoans I have inquired about this deny having African roots. Is it a case of folks not "wanting to claim Black"? Or do they truly not have African lineage? I wanna know if anyone else has some info on this, too.

734487



There was a thread similar to this last year, I remember since I think I ended up making more posts than anyone else on it, and I wasn't the OP! :lol: I am part Melanesian tho, so it was great to be able to share something on the subject with those wanting to know! :) So yeah, I know some of the people you're both asking about are black... in that some of them are Melanesian (Papua New Guinea for one) , and Melanesians migrated to the South Pacific from East Africa. (My Mel. ancestory is mostly Fijian + I recently found out we also trace back to the Solomon Islands too as some were brought to Fiji, by Euro 'blackbirders' as they're still refered to in our history books - aka slave traders.)

Some of the other people eg Maori, Samoan, etc are actually Polynesian, and though some (probably most, if not all, but to greatly varying degrees) Polynesians have some Melanesian in the mix, they're largely decended from Indo-Asia, possably also with some South American... but that part is still highly debated. Most of the Maori I know are very into their Polynesian cultural roots, and identify as Polynesian, being brown rather than black, but it's more about affirming their own unique identity rather than ignorantly aping another culture - which they feel it would be to just say they're black or only claim far reaching African roots, when they're more mixed than that and in Poly culture it's considered important to acknowlege all parts of your known history. So it's not out of a desire not to be Black, so much as it is a concious assertion of their whole identity as Polynesians. Then again, some mightn't even nkow where Polynesians originated, since their current identity is so strong. They're not particularly African in appearance compared to Melanesians at least. When they go to the US many tell me they are mistaken for Latino. Most of them are also part Euro now... and some are part Chinese too, since they also invaded parts of the South Pacific.

The Koori in Australia are a different people again, and while there are plenty of theories about what kind of black they are... Bottom line: they're black in Australian Society. That's a real defining factor for many of the people you're interested in, sadly. Dee could probably explain better than me regarding the origins of the Koori in Australia, and how they identify, since she's in Aussie and I remember she posted some great stuff in that old thread.

Anyway, I'm not sure how all the people you listed identify themselves, but I know that Melanesians do indentify as being of African origins, and culturally Melanesian. Personally, I am of Melanesian ancestory, have a little teeny bit of Polynesian, some Euro (Irish mainly), and Jewish, and also other Black ancestory, via the US. I generally consider myself a Black New Zealander, of mixed ancestory!

Does that help answer anything you wanted to know? :afro: Feel free to ask me anything else you'd like to know about the South Pacific Peoples, they're the ones I can probably talk about, if there's anything specific you'd like to know. :afro:

Oh, BTW: Papua (as in Papua New Guinea) is a Malay word describing... their HAIR texture!!! :afro: Papaun literally means "KINKY HAIRED!" :afro: It wasn't a complimentary term either... but now it's used with pride in this part of the world! (Uh huh! Gotta have one more afro smilie for that one...) :afro:

iwi_maha77
02-26-2005, 05:02 AM
Here are some pictures of different Melanesians, for anyone who has never met one/seen pictures etc.

Fijian girls (I won't post it here, it's too big, but go to the link! It's a great pic!)

Fijian girls (http://www.thecommonwealth.org/shared_asp_files/uploadedfiles/%7B32D6BEDE-7CBA-491D-9661-B62CE53CFA86%7D_young%20fijian.jpg)


Men & boys from Vanuatu

http://www.moodindigo.ca/imagicity//horse-race-spectators-8_600.jpg

Solomon Islander girl

http://www.charapoana.com/photo/jpg600x600/51.jpg

Papua New Guinea kids

http://www.jaars.org/aviation04/images/WhyWeFly/PNG-ChildrenVillage.JPG

iwi_maha77
02-26-2005, 05:20 AM
One more of some Fijians:

http://outdoorplace.org/beekeeping/graphics/fiji17md.jpg


And some pics of Maori (Polynesian) women as MizBrowniMD mentioned. :)

Older picture of Maori Women

http://www.oceania-ethnographica.com/micl25.jpg

More recent picture of Maori Women performing in traditional costume

http://www.embassy.org.nz/encycl/wahine.jpg

Sacral
02-26-2005, 05:58 AM
My answer from my minimally researched opinion......Yes-and-No.

I know some anthropologist, and I learned about very surface details from my African Diaspora classes in college (one of the top HBCU's). But I do know that migration patterns, climate, and continental break-ups had much to do with this. Overall, all humans were, "Black", at some point.

Gotta look up my notes from undergrad...........More about this later.


Any Anthropologist out there? :afro:


I LOVE Zora Neal Hurston!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

- Sacral

Ashe Ogun! :D

brnize4u
02-26-2005, 07:44 AM
Oh yea, the Solomon Islander girl and the men and boys from Vanuatu I know are Black. They look just like me. They're beautiful.

This is a great thread. :pop:


brnize4u

jazzyray
02-26-2005, 09:39 AM
wow this thread is so interesting, thank you iwi-maha77 for your contributions:)

Just looking at those pictures i am unsure if i would say that the Solomon Islander girl only had black ancestry. Just looking at her she has a fiery red tint to her face and some of my friends who have both black and asian ancestry resemble her slightly with their complexions. I find that their complexions can look a bit red even if their skin colour may look dark.

linn
02-26-2005, 03:49 PM
The men are.. well I don't take any particular liking to dark skinned men,
I usually like lighter ones.
But they are okay I guess.

Ummm....excuse me but your shackles are showing.

Shanna
02-26-2005, 04:43 PM
Nothing to add, this is an interesting topic....

those Fijan girls are rockin' the fros though! :afro:

Nappy_Rogue
02-26-2005, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by linn@Feb 26 2005, 11:49 AM
Ummm....excuse me but your shackles are showing.

734847

:huh:
Just a preference.
No need to be offended. :rolleyes:

Iwa, have you ever heard of people called negritos?
Read about them in a book called Hot Johnny.
They were from Indonesia.

onie_p
02-26-2005, 06:11 PM
MY PEOPLE are beautiful and soooooo diverse I really love the picture of the Solomon Islander girl she is adorable looks like my girl Steph with those blonde napps.

Shoot regardless I am claiming em'!

Thanks for the info!

Hartu
02-26-2005, 06:15 PM
The women with the long hair are pretty.
The men are.. well I don't take any particular liking to dark skinned men,
I usually like lighter ones.
But they are okay I guess.

Ummm....excuse me but your shackles are showing.

Just a preference.
No need to be offended.

Hmmm...I used to believe that that was "just a preference" too.
Fresh off the plantation, heh, Laluna? Oh, well...

marissasensei
02-26-2005, 06:34 PM
Thanks for posting the pics, iwi_maha! They are all striking, but the Solomon Islands girl . . . WOW. :wub:

Any recs for good books about Melanesian people/culture?

MizBrowniMD
02-26-2005, 06:42 PM
Thanks so much for your iwi_maha! The men from Vanuatu and the Solomon Islander girl look like some of my daddy's people...all the way down to the complexion and hair color... :icon_eek13: Talk about things that make you go "Hmmm..." ;)

MizBrowniMD
02-26-2005, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by Nappy_Rogue@Feb 26 2005, 11:25 AM
The women with the long hair are pretty.
The men are.. well I don't take any particular liking to dark skinned men,
I usually like lighter ones.
But they are okay I guess.

734834

Wuh-oh.................:bolt:

honeychild
02-26-2005, 07:09 PM
:wub: loving these pics, thanks for posting!!!

i tend to think of 'black' as both a racial and a cultural designator, denoting relatively recent african ancestry, and b/c i'm an african-american, to me that revolves around the african slave trade and the related diaspora. african american, african, afro-caribbean, european with african ancestry, etc.

but to me, culture trumps race, so to me, 'nigerian' is a more efficient designator than 'black' for someone born in nigeria, or born in brooklyn to nigerian parents.

similarly, i think of pacific islanders as pacific islanders. i think they are some BEAUTIFUL brown people with some of the fiercest fros on the planet, :afro: but i respect their cultural sovereignty and don't like lumping all brown people into 'black' as though we're all one culture. we're not, and our cultural diversity is precious to me and i don't think we are served by diminishing that with our language. although i definitely dig what iwi-maha was saying, about folks being 'black' within their own cultural contexts. that makes total sense particularly as concerns first-world peoples and post-colonial realities.

Blackstar
02-26-2005, 07:52 PM
my SO keeps telling me how everyone including white folks like him all came from Africa. LOL. I know there are a few anthropoligists and evolutionists who support this theory. everytime we meet racism the BF brings out this trump card and the racist goes all dumb.

Blackstar
02-26-2005, 08:51 PM
yeah it is :-)yet it seems like we forget that so easily. so sometimes we just need to remind the ignorants who have created race lines based on superiority or inferiority.

iwi maha those pictures are just plain beautiful. gosh the diversity of the black gene, it's just beautiful. i love your avatar as well. :D

someone said sth really odd about dark skinned men. my heart thumped down and i felt quite nauseous when i read it.

YoGirlToo
02-27-2005, 12:02 AM
i think there's a connection

sunschild57
02-27-2005, 12:24 AM
Originally posted by jazzyray@Feb 26 2005, 05:39 AM
wow this thread is so interesting, thank you iwi-maha77 for your contributions:)

Just looking at those pictures i am unsure if i would say that the Solomon Islander girl only had black ancestry. Just looking at her she has a fiery red tint to her face and some of my friends who have both black and asian ancestry resemble her slightly with their complexions. I find that their complexions can look a bit red even if their skin colour may look dark.

734702


The majority of my fathers side of the family have a deep red undertone (tint), even the very dark ones. If I didn't know any better, I would think the young girl in the photo was a relative of mine. By the way most people I know with that kind "tint" claim to have native american ancestry.....singing We Are Family... :afro:

sunschild57
02-27-2005, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by iwi_maha77@Feb 26 2005, 12:06 AM
There was a thread similar to this last year, I remember since I think I ended up making more posts than anyone else on it, and I wasn't the OP! :lol: I am part Melanesian tho, so it was great to be able to share something on the subject with those wanting to know! :) So yeah, I know some of the people you're both asking about are black... in that some of them are Melanesian (Papua New Guinea for one) , and Melanesians migrated to the South Pacific from East Africa. (My Mel. ancestory is mostly Fijian + I recently found out we also trace back to the Solomon Islands too as some were brought to Fiji, by Euro 'blackbirders' as they're still refered to in our history books - aka slave traders.)

Some of the other people eg Maori, Samoan, etc are actually Polynesian, and though some (probably most, if not all, but to greatly varying degrees) Polynesians have some Melanesian in the mix, they're largely decended from Indo-Asia, possably also with some South American... but that part is still highly debated. Most of the Maori I know are very into their Polynesian cultural roots, and identify as Polynesian, being brown rather than black, but it's more about affirming their own unique identity rather than ignorantly aping another culture - which they feel it would be to just say they're black or only claim far reaching African roots, when they're more mixed than that and in Poly culture it's considered important to acknowlege all parts of your known history. So it's not out of a desire not to be Black, so much as it is a concious assertion of their whole identity as Polynesians. Then again, some mightn't even nkow where Polynesians originated, since their current identity is so strong. They're not particularly African in appearance compared to Melanesians at least. When they go to the US many tell me they are mistaken for Latino. Most of them are also part Euro now... and some are part Chinese too, since they also invaded parts of the South Pacific.

The Koori in Australia are a different people again, and while there are plenty of theories about what kind of black they are... Bottom line: they're black in Australian Society. That's a real defining factor for many of the people you're interested in, sadly. Dee could probably explain better than me regarding the origins of the Koori in Australia, and how they identify, since she's in Aussie and I remember she posted some great stuff in that old thread.

Anyway, I'm not sure how all the people you listed identify themselves, but I know that Melanesians do indentify as being of African origins, and culturally Melanesian. Personally, I am of Melanesian ancestory, have a little teeny bit of Polynesian, some Euro (Irish mainly), and Jewish, and also other Black ancestory, via the US. I generally consider myself a Black New Zealander, of mixed ancestory!

Does that help answer anything you wanted to know? :afro: Feel free to ask me anything else you'd like to know about the South Pacific Peoples, they're the ones I can probably talk about, if there's anything specific you'd like to know. :afro:

Oh, BTW: Papua (as in Papua New Guinea) is a Malay word describing... their HAIR texture!!! :afro: Papaun literally means "KINKY HAIRED!" :afro: It wasn't a complimentary term either... but now it's used with pride in this part of the world! (Uh huh! Gotta have one more afro smilie for that one...) :afro:

734535



...Always learning something new. Thanks for the lesson iwi_maha77!!! :afro:

Ace9
02-27-2005, 12:50 AM
Hmm..decided to join this topic.

Most of those islanders, Vanatau, Maori's and Aboriginals, they do consider themselves as being from there, but scientifically speaking which were blood tests done. States that they are of South African decent, after the believed first diaspora, with no reason as to why it occured.

But also it was believed at that time that Pangaea had existed which contributed to the easy travel of the people from one part of the world to another part. It is also believed that boats could have done the voyage, but there is no conclusive evidence for either.


Those people are considered black by the people. I know many an Australian taht do no see any of these people as anythign other than blacks. And I know, having spoken to some of them, they do consider themselves black. Especially those from Vanautu.

But if you speak to the traditional Maori's and some Aboriginals, they do not consider themselves black because they have their own mythology as to their creation. Which is not through any kind of white influence or even black hatred.

They created their origin, since they believe they were the only ones in teh world before any one else, which is natural.

Scientifically they ARE black, and are of black descent. Some of them DO consider themselves to be black and associate themselves with the black culture and struggle. The whites in these countries also consider THEM as black and nothing else. And a larger majority who are proud of their roots, follow their origin oral tradition!

Excellent pictures by the way. I like the black one with yellow hair...I love seeing the diversity in our people! Kinky as can be with blond hair.

Of course we created white people...white people couldn't have created us!! ^_^

sharynleigh
02-27-2005, 01:07 AM
Has anyone seen the documentary "The Real Eve"? It was on the Discovery Channel last year. It explains how the DNA of every nationality all over the planet can be traced back to a tribe in Africa. But there are several tribes that do not share the same DNA. The Original Man. This documentary also explained the how and the why of complexion, hair type and facial features.


The Real Eve (http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/realeve/interactive/interactive.html)

lifeAgift
02-27-2005, 01:09 AM
My take is that "black" and "brown" skin folks in other countries aren't conscious of color in the same manner or frequency as we are in the US.

I've met people from Nigeria and Ghana,Bermuda, the Islands, Brazil etc...who don't seem to make refrence to color ever! Even Haitians and Peurto Ricans with clearly Negroid features seem to often defer to be called by there country of origin than black.

:wub: My husband who is from Egypt never concerned himself with differentiating by skin tone. Everyone he new was reffered to by there fathers last name and city then religion (Muslim vs. Christian) or land of origin(Arab, Greek, or Egyptian). Ex. His cousin Muhammad is Said Gaads son from El Ibrahamia.. the name denotes that he is Muslim.

:dunno: He is even baffled to this day that EEOC forms would have him mark white, because he is from North Africa. He never even noticed racism until after 9/11 then it hit him hard to be a African /Black Muslim Male in America with an Arabic name. An now he has to deal with the negative and embrace the positive racial stereotypes and generalizations that come with being classified as Black and still sometimes mistakenly as Arab.

My husband is proud to be Egyptian and African and not noticing his "blackness" had more to do with growing up with 75mill other folks who looked like. ;) By the way white tourist or temporary residents in Egypt are often reffered to as blondes, despite the color of there hair.

MizBrowniMD
02-27-2005, 01:56 AM
Juicy thread, this has become....

:pop:

Talisa3636
02-27-2005, 01:57 AM
Its funny to me how some people refuse to believe that many nationality of the world have stemmed from Africa. If you ask most black people about the african diaspora many dont know about it. I am so proud about my african liniage as well as my past ansestors who are india as well as european. I funny situation happened this week when a friend of mine who is a "proud" jew tried to tell me that the Ancient Egyptians were not Black but Arabs. I is a very stubborn person so I had to refrain myself from telling him that the Arab people stemmed from Africa. I feel that more people need to learn about the african diapora and appreciate their rich african heritage.

Talisa3636
02-27-2005, 01:58 AM
woops i mean't he is a very stubborn person! :doh

sunschild57
02-27-2005, 04:33 AM
Originally posted by lifeAgift@Feb 26 2005, 09:09 PM
My take is that "black" and "brown" skin folks in other countries aren't conscious of color in the same manner or frequency as we are in the US.

I've met people from Nigeria and Ghana,Bermuda, the Islands, Brazil etc...who don't seem to make refrence to color ever! Even Haitians and Peurto Ricans with clearly Negroid features seem to often defer to be called by there country of origin than black.

735385


Oh Boy!!!! Don't even go there! :doh

lexie
02-27-2005, 05:32 AM
Originally posted by lifeAgift@Feb 27 2005, 03:09 AM
My take is that "black" and "brown" skin folks in other countries aren't conscious of color in the same manner or frequency as we are in the US.

I've met people from Nigeria and Ghana,Bermuda, the Islands, Brazil etc...who don't seem to make refrence to color ever! Even Haitians and Peurto Ricans with clearly Negroid features seem to often defer to be called by there country of origin than black.

:wub: My husband who is from Egypt never concerned himself with differentiating by skin tone. Everyone he new was reffered to by there fathers last name and city then religion (Muslim vs. Christian) or land of origin(Arab, Greek, or Egyptian). Ex. His cousin Muhammad is Said Gaads son from El Ibrahamia.. the name denotes that he is Muslim.

:dunno: He is even baffled to this day that EEOC forms would have him mark white, because he is from North Africa. He never even noticed racism until after 9/11 then it hit him hard to be a African /Black Muslim Male in America with an Arabic name. An now he has to deal with the negative and embrace the positive racial stereotypes and generalizations that come with being classified as Black and still sometimes mistakenly as Arab.

My husband is proud to be Egyptian and African and not noticing his "blackness" had more to do with growing up with 75mill other folks who looked like. ;) By the way white tourist or temporary residents in Egypt are often reffered to as blondes, despite the color of there hair.

735385




The last part is so true. In Haiti we call tourists or foreigners "blancs" (white) even if they are black. It's just a way to say that they are not haitians.

CrazeeDCoil
02-27-2005, 11:11 AM
Here's a great website for looking at the many different people in these lands. Many of these postcards are from the Turn on the 19th century.

Oceania Ethnographica (http://www.oceania-ethnographica.com/)

ETA: Someone mentioned Negritos earlier in this thread. I couldn't find a good photo site for the negritos, but did find this interesting description of the Negrritos from an old encyclopedia in the 1880s:

NEGRITOS (Span. for little negroes ), the name originally given by the Spaniards to the aborigines of the Philippine Islands. They are physical weaklings, of low, almost dwarf, stature, with very dark skin, closely curling hair, flat noses, thick lips and large clumsy feet. The term has, however, been more generally applied to one of the great ethnic groups into which the population of the East Indies is divided, and to an apparently kindred race in Africa (see NEGRO). A. de Quatrefages suggests that from the parent negroid stem were thrown off ,two negrito branches to the west and east, the Indo-Oceanic and African, and that the Akkas, Wochuas, Batwas and Bushmen of the Dark Continent are kinsmen of the Andaman Islanders, the Sakais of the Malay Peninsula and the Aetas of the Philippines. This view has found much acceptance among ethnologists. The result of Quatrefagess theory would be to place the negrito races closest to the primitive human type, a conclusion apparently justified by their physical characteristics. The true negritos are always of little stature (the majority under 5 ft.), have rounded forms and their skull is brachycephalic or subbrachycephalic, that is to say, it is relatively short and broad and of little height. Their skin is dark brown or black, sometimes somewhat yellowish, their hair woolly (scanty on face and body), and they have the flat nose and thick lips and other physical features of the negro. Among peoples undoubtedly negrito are those of the Andaman Islands (q.v.), the Malay Peninsula (q.v.) and some of the Philippines (q.v.), the best types being the Sakais (q.v.), Mincopies and Aetas. The question of the socalled negrito races of India, the Oraons, Gonds, &c., is in much dispute, Quatrefages believing the Indian aborigines to have been negritos, while other ethnologists find the primitive people of Hindustan in the Dravidian races. Some authorities have placed the Veddahs of Ceylon among the negritos, but their straight hair and dolichocephalic skulls are sufficient arguments against their inclusion. The negrito is often confounded with the Papuan; but the latter, though possessing the same woolly hair and being of the same color, is a large, often muscular man, with a long, high skull.

See A. de Quatrefages, ILes Fygmees (Paris, 1887; Eng. trans.

1895); E. Fl. Man, The Aborigines of the Andaman Islands (London, 1885); Giglioli, Nuove notizie sui populi negroidi dell Asia especialmente sui Negriti (Florence, 1879); Meyer, Album von PhilippinenTypen (Dresden, 1885); Blumentritt, Ethnographie der Philip jinnen (Gotha, 1892); A. B. Meyer, Die Negritos (Dresden, 1899); A. H.

Keane, Ethnology; A. C. Haddon in Nature for September 1899.

CatSuga
02-27-2005, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by CrazeeDCoil@Feb 27 2005, 06:11 AM
NEGRITOS (Span. for little negroes ), the name originally given by the Spaniards to the aborigines of the Philippine Islands. They are physical weaklings, of low, almost dwarf, stature, with very dark skin, closely curling hair, flat noses, thick lips and large clumsy feet.

Damn. :doh Why do they try to make it sound so ugly? :(

CrazeeDCoil
02-27-2005, 01:18 PM
isn't that messed up?

meagan22
02-27-2005, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by CrazeeDCoil@Feb 27 2005, 09:18 AM
isn't that messed up?

735864

yes it is, but for a very long time Anthropology was a mesed up discipline. :dunno: it was basically the study of non-white people through they eyes of white folks and based soley upon white standards.

CrazeeDCoil, I have a pic of an Adamanese woman, a so-called 'negrito', that I posted in another thread. . . . . .

ETA: this link (http://www.andaman.org/book/chapter5/text5.htm). The best pic is the first one, but there are others farther down on the page :afro:

Blackstar
02-27-2005, 03:07 PM
i never knew that about anthropology, but now i can see that examining a group of people from a white microscope will reveal rather distorted and prejudiced results disguised as science.

CrazeeDCoil
02-27-2005, 07:14 PM
Wow! That lady does have a pretty big bottom.... Interesting. The pics that I have found were more proportioned. The people just seemed small-ish. Even I'm tall compared to the Negritos!

deecoily
02-28-2005, 02:25 AM
**waving at iwi Maha from across the Tasman** :D

Kooris in Australia are Black. They see themselves as part of the big Black struggle on this earth. I am generalizing of course, and there are some Kooris who identify more with Polynesia, but I think the majority and ALL the Kooris I know see themselves as Koori Blacks. Whether they have straight hair, curly hair or fros like me :D They come in all shades, just like us. they're Black too. Just like us. Their mentality can be different because they were not institutionalized and enslaved like American Blacks were (and are). Indigenous people who were invaded and displaced within their homelands come from a different mindset from those who were capured and relocated to distant lands. But still, they're Black.

I held some conferences for Koori girls and women and they envy a lot of the freedoms they see American Blacks as having that they don't. They are still VERY discriminated against here. It's basically state policy. It's OK to refuse someone a home loan because they're Aboriginal (cuz we all know they'll burn the house down using furniture as cooking fires). It's OK to refuse someone a job because they're Aboriginal (cuz we all know they are lazy and go on walk-about). But we're working for change.

~Dee~

deecoily
02-28-2005, 02:44 AM
Originally posted by Ace9@Feb 27 2005, 12:50 PM
But if you speak to the traditional Maori's and some Aboriginals, they do not consider themselves black because they have their own mythology as to their creation. Which is not through any kind of white influence or even black hatred.

They created their origin, since they believe they were the only ones in teh world before any one else, which is natural.

Scientifically they ARE black, and are of black descent. Some of them DO consider themselves to be black and associate themselves with the black culture and struggle. The whites in these countries also consider THEM as black and nothing else. And a larger majority who are proud of their roots, follow their origin oral tradition!

735362


Very true! I have visited with Northern Territory Kooris (waaaaay out there in the hot azz desert) and yes, they believe in their own creation dreamtime, they also see they are not "ghost" (white) ;) and believe in "racially" separate identities but along different lines than what you'd expect. People are made in different dreamtimes and their features are representative of that. Just like every living (and non-living) thing on this earth and in the heavens. To them, nothing is not living. It's just different states of being. The rock and the tree and the snake.

I love these people. :afro: I have learned so much from them.

The problem is there is such a divide between the Kooris in the cities and Kooris in the traditional places. Young people are heading for the cities and leaving the old folk to carry on traditions. They don't want to learn about the old ways, they want PlayStation and Nelly videos. There is a push in the schools to keep traditions going, which is great. We will see.

~Dee~

MizBrowniMD
02-28-2005, 02:52 AM
Originally posted by deecoily@Feb 27 2005, 10:44 PM
Very true! I have visited with Northern Territory Kooris (waaaaay out there in the hot azz desert) and yes, they believe in their own creation dreamtime, they also see they are not "ghost" (white) ;) and believe in "racially" separate identities but along different lines than what you'd expect. People are made in different dreamtimes and their features are representative of that. Just like every living (and non-living) thing on this earth and in the heavens. To them, nothing is not living. It's just different states of being. The rock and the tree and the snake.

I love these people. :afro: I have learned so much from them.
The problem is there is such a divide between the Kooris in the cities and Kooris in the traditional places. Young people are heading for the cities and leaving the old folk to carry on traditions. They don't want to learn about the old ways, they want PlayStation and Nelly videos. There is a push in the schools to keep traditions going, which is great. We will see.

~Dee~

736673

I have been itching to visit somewhere outside of the U.S....you are making me want to come over there! ;)

afrogeek
03-01-2005, 12:02 PM
:afro: :pop: :pop: This discussion is absolutely fascinating...learning many things about Polynesians I did not know. Really gotta go visit that part of the world! :pop: :pop: :afro:

ade94
03-03-2005, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by Blackstar@Feb 27 2005, 11:07 AM
i never knew that about anthropology, but now i can see that examining a group of people from a white microscope will reveal rather distorted and prejudiced results disguised as science.

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In reading encyclopedias even from the 1960's the way most people of color are described (physically) is sickening.

I am not sure if anyone saw the documentary on the World Fair show on PBS last year or 2 years ago. One segment showed people going to view pics of Asians as if it were a circus. It is appalling, but necessary for people to see how distorted people's views are, and the disrespect of life, because of lack of understanding. I truly understand why mistrust and loathing exist, after reading some journals, particularly talking about the "dark (#%$^@&%) continent". :icon_headshake:

Great thread ( I also followed the thread last year with the Oceania link).

morena23
03-03-2005, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by honeychild@Feb 26 2005, 12:09 PM
:wub: loving these pics, thanks for posting!!!

i tend to think of 'black' as both a racial and a cultural designator, denoting relatively recent african ancestry, and b/c i'm an african-american, to me that revolves around the african slave trade and the related diaspora. african american, african, afro-caribbean, european with african ancestry, etc.

but to me, culture trumps race, so to me, 'nigerian' is a more efficient designator than 'black' for someone born in nigeria, or born in brooklyn to nigerian parents.

similarly, i think of pacific islanders as pacific islanders. i think they are some BEAUTIFUL brown people with some of the fiercest fros on the planet, :afro: but i respect their cultural sovereignty and don't like lumping all brown people into 'black' as though we're all one culture. we're not, and our cultural diversity is precious to me and i don't think we are served by diminishing that with our language. although i definitely dig what iwi-maha was saying, about folks being 'black' within their own cultural contexts. that makes total sense particularly as concerns first-world peoples and post-colonial realities.

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Excellent post.

iwi_maha77
03-18-2005, 05:25 AM
Ok, ok, I kept meaning to reply to this, but life got in the way! :blush: Wow, it's so great to see all the wonderful posts from everyone! :afro:

jazzyray - Actually I think it's pretty unlikely there's any Asian in the little Solomon girl. Just going by the history of the area, duing the Melanesian migration the Asian's encountered are thought to have been very hostile to the black folks passing by en route from Africa to Oceania. More recently many of the Asian, and Indo-Asian people in the area (of both Polynesia & Melanesia) have often rivaled the Europeans in their opression of Pacific peoples. I don't think there's been much of an Asian infuence on the Solomons, and I know that genetic studies have shown that the peoples of most of Melanesia (exculding only the very cusp of Indo-Melanesia) have no Asian ancestory, or when they do (generally geographically closer to Asia true), it's still only a tiny part.

Shanna - Yeah, they are aren't they?! :afro: That's very much a traditional style in Fiji... the good ol' beautiful fro! Lovely!

NappyRouge - Yep, I've heard of them. There's already stuff on them in this thread now, so I won't bother going over that, but if you want it, I do have have further info on them.

Onie_p - Yeah, I completely love that pic of the SI girl, she's beautiful! :wub: MzBrowniMD & brnize4u - Ok, that's just so cool! I know that they look like my family too, and I'd add in the Fijian girls too, but to hear it from you too it very cool! Small, small world.

MarissaSensei - Hmmm, there's a bit of a shortage of good books on the area, culture etc, but I do have a few great ones, and plenty that are either out of date & since proved innacurate, or are ok but hard to find, or are just written badly! I'll run a search on the better ones later for you if you like, and make sure they're actually available over there. Then I'll post back on them, when I have a list that won't kill ya to try to find any of!

honeychild - I love your post, and totally feel what you're saying. At the same time, there's also this common feeling over here that comes to mind when I read it. I don't know, maybe you'd find it interesting? People don't always give much respect to the cultures of this area, yet sometimes when decent people finally do show honour and respect of the cultural identities of Melanesians, from this end it can feel like they see Melanesia as so seperate that it negates our still huge common ground as black people. I guess it's partly because we're so aware of the geographic divide already, so a mental/emotional one just adds to the feeling of isolation from the other black peoples we relate to. It's a tricky balance, I tell ya! Now I know that, way back when, my Melanesian family welcomed my AA family as being of the same people but of another tribe. Which is how I personally percieve the cultural differences between them too... different original tribal backgrounds, some different experiences & history - but also a lot in common along those lines too, and still at the heart of it - one people, with a whole lot of beautiful variations entwined in our still significant collective whole. Both black branches (+ some of the white part) of my family marched together in the 80's 'springbok tour' marches in NZ, solid in support of South African blacks. (I was there too, riding on my Dad's shoulders, holding my Mum's hand!). Did that make sense, or did I just wander off to where only that voice inside my head gets what I'm on about? :lol: Thinking about what you said about the slave trade, did you know the slave trade also reached the South Pacific? There were people being taken from here to South America, people being moved from island to island here, and a small ammount of slaves brought into the South Pacific by Euro's who had them working on their boats sailing here for other purposes. They saw Melanesia, and Polynesia as yet another source of black & brown folks for the use of. :angry: The Black-Belt/African-Belt as it was (& sometimes still is) refered to, lived the horrors right across it, not just in our original land of Africa. The world just doesn't hear it when we speak of it individually. There are several groups trying to unite all black peoples of the world to stand together to voice the concerns about current issues for all black people and stand together. There is one (I'm so frustrated that I can't remember the name right now!) that is very active in voicing the plight of Melanesians... and they're based in Africa! :wub:

Blackstar - Thank you for the compliment on my avatar! :blush: My mother took that!

Ace9 - You're close! Actually the African Pacific peoples are mostly thought to be from East Africa, not South Africa. There is even a type of cancer previously thought to only be found in Africa, specifically in Tanzania, which has since been found in Melanesia - in Papua New Guinea! Also, the first journey/journeys were made before the geographic changes, but it's believed among Melanesian peoples and also accepted by many researcers now, that there were many subsequent migrations after the first, including much, much more recently. You're right (and put it excellently!), Melanesians do identify as being of African decent, in fact if you ask a Melanesian where their people were from before Melanesia... they're likely to look at you like you're stupid to even have to ask! It's just taken as a given because it's so obvious! :afro: You gave me the biggest smile with the love for the little yellow-blonde boy... I had the same hair colour at about his age!

Megan22 - Your comments re anthropology are so true! ITA with that!

Dee - *Waving back @ ya from this side of the ditch!* Thanks for posting the info on the Koori, sis! I knew you'd say it better than I could! They're our people too! That divide between the young and old was being felt in NZ too (and still is in the Islands), but now they young people in NZ are so into learning from the oldies, that it's the folks in the middle that don't have a clue!

ade94 - True! There's a really brilliant correction of these sort of things in relation to New Zealand history in the Penguin History of New Zealand by Michael King. He quotes all these old references that have been accepted for so long... and shoots them to pieces! He provided so much accurate info to replace it, sadly he died shortly after publication. I wish there were more people like him out there, there's such a need, the world over for an overhaul. This guy made such an impact that that history book became a best seller here!

Whew! Long post, but I love this thread! Great posts nappy-peoples!