Since We're On The Topic Of Buffonery....

[CatSuga]

http://www.streetswing.com/histmai2/gif/1zipcon1.gif http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/owlive/img/aug04/dapper_082004_125x220b.jpg

Do you see a difference? :dunno:

[morena23]

I like the waaaaaay you moooove.

[vinny_46]

How do you know the drawing on the left is meant to be a buffoon??
Who is the guy on the right, I've only seen him once. :huh:

[anabwi]

That's Fonzworth Bentley, used to be P Diddy's manservant/butler, but he's doing his thang now and getting paid.

[CatSuga]

Originally posted by vinny_46@Mar 1 2005, 05:57 PM
How do you know the drawing on the left is meant to be a buffoon??

739938


Oh come on!!! Zip Coon is the original buffoon! :doh

[anabwi]

:pointlaugh: :pointlaugh: :pointlaugh:

[vinny_46]

Originally posted by CatSuga@Mar 1 2005, 04:00 PM
Oh come on!!! Zip Coon is the original buffoon! :doh

739945


Oh, I didn't know who he was. :unsure:

[CreoleSun]

i definitely see where you're aiming at.
to me rap stars on TV look like minstrels
there's a thread on here about fat black women portrayed on screen like Big Momma or Madea...
are these examples of Mammys in the early 19th century?
what about modern day pickannies, uncle toms, sambos, mr. bones and mr. tambo and tragic mulattos?

[Sunchild]

Yeah he is another one that grates my nerves. :rolleyes:

[librarising]

Originally posted by anabwi@Mar 1 2005, 07:00 PM
That's Fonzworth Bentley, used to be P Diddy's manservant/butler, but he's doing his thang now and getting paid.
739942


So were the girls in the "Tip Drill" video, the actors in "Soul Plane", etc.

[anabwi]

yes, getting paid !! Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

[Ammee]

anabwi, that is correct and some people don't care what it is they do

[PrincessDrRe]

It was recently mentioned on this site that the 2nd season of "In Living Color" was coming out. I want to get it......as I already got the first season - but I'm curious...is that also buffoonery?

[Peaches]

Originally posted by PrincessDrRe@Mar 2 2005, 12:14 AM
It was recently mentioned on this site that the 2nd season of "In Living Color" was coming out. I want to get it......as I already got the first season - but I'm curious...is that also buffoonery?

740214

That's a good question. Some people question whether or not Dave Chapelle is a baffoon and also Wayne Brady.

Maybe you're not a baffoon if you aren't afraid to make jokes about white people. On In Living Color they did that all the time. Baffoon's run around shucking and jiving and "yassa boss"-ing. If you're smacking white folks upside the head and saying "Homie don't play that", then I guess you're not a baffoon.

[NLight1]

Originally posted by librarising@Mar 1 2005, 08:25 PM
So were the girls in the "Tip Drill" video, the actors in "Soul Plane", etc.

740097

LOL, I know right :lol:

Maybe you're not a baffoon if you aren't afraid to make jokes about white people. On In Living Color they did that all the time. Baffoon's run around shucking and jiving and "yassa boss"-ing. If you're smacking white folks upside the head and saying "Homie don't play that", then I guess you're not a baffoon.
Yea, Living Color had many different characters, not the same ole ish. And homie the clown was hilarioius and hitting white folks upside the head was cool :D ( to me anyway..ha)

Also, with tv, I have the option of turning the channel if I don't like what I see and it is FREE. There is the difference between me paying to see bafoons in a movie :P

[librarising]

Originally posted by anabwi@Mar 1 2005, 10:35 PM
yes, getting paid !! Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

740156


And if that makes you and your people look like fools, then so be it 'cause the dollars more important. ;)

[thighslikewhat]

Originally posted by CreoleSun@Mar 2 2005, 12:39 AM
i definitely see where you're aiming at.
to me rap stars on TV look like minstrels
there's a thread on here about fat black women portrayed on screen like Big Momma or Madea...
are these examples of Mammys in the early 19th century?
what about modern day pickannies, uncle toms, sambos, mr. bones and mr. tambo and tragic mulattos?

740005



I won't comment on the baffoon issue because I am not educated enough on the matter and I would just make a bafoon of myself if I tried to front but.. I have read and heard from Tyler Perry himself If I am not mistaken that Madea is a portrayal of HIS own grandmother. If that's what she was like (and who better to know than Mr Perry himself) why can't he portray her the way he rememebrs her :dunno:

BTW maybe someone would like to point me in the right direction of where I can read up on bafoonery? ;)

[vinny_46]

Originally posted by anabwi@Mar 1 2005, 04:00 PM
That's Fonzworth Bentley, used to be P Diddy's manservant/butler, but he's doing his thang now and getting paid.

739942


Whaaa!? I didn&#39;t know he had it like that. :huh: <_<

[NLight1]

Originally posted by thighslikewhat@Mar 1 2005, 11:34 PM
BTW maybe someone would like to point me in the right direction of where I can read up on bafoonery? ;)

740325

Here are some quick definitions I found online:
1. Buf-foon" (?), n. [F. bouffon (cf. It. buffone, buffo, buffa, puff of wind, vanity, nonsense, trick), fr. bouffer to puff out, because the buffoons puffed out their cheeks for the amusement of the spectators. See Buffet a blow.]
A man who makes a practice of amusing others by low tricks, antic gestures, etc.; a droll; a mimic; a harlequin; a clown; a merry-andrew.
(isn&#39;t Tyler Perry "mimicing" his grandmother? Is he not puffing out his cheeks and is a man using antics to entertain? hmmmm)

2. A clown; a jester: a court buffoon.
A person given to clowning and joking.
A ludicrous or bumbling person; a fool. (hey this sounds like Bush doesn&#39;t it????)

3. The etymology (origin) of the word:
1549, from M.Fr. bouffon, from It. buffone "jester," from buffare "to puff out the cheeks," a comic gesture, of echoic origin.

4. And yet another used to describe the word Sambo:
Sambo - A black person having buffoon-ish qualities. Taken from the story, "Little Black Sambo."

Also, I pretty much learned of slap stick, buffons, and mintrel shows from my parents, aunts/uncles and grandparents. They told me stories of "back in the day" but back in the day appears to still be going on "today" too. But it just seems to be more accepted. I also read up on it in the library, so that would be good place to start if interested. Or maybe google the word on the internet, that should turn up some interesting stuff :)

[ScoobyGurl]

I honestly think that most black celebrities have no clue about the buffoon image or the many other stereotypes that have existed of black people, which is why they keep perpetuating them. If they do find out about these stereotypes they can&#39;t connect the dots. I was reading an article in Vibe last night about Tyler Perry. The man really doesn&#39;t get it. It&#39;s really sad because these people put out images of black people to the world and they can make such a good impact but they don&#39;t :( .

Also, what&#39;s even more sad is when black people you know don&#39;t get it either but that&#39;s another story :( .

[thighslikewhat]

Originally posted by ScoobyGurl@Mar 2 2005, 11:34 AM
I honestly think that most black celebrities have no clue about the buffoon image or the many other stereotypes that have existed of black people, which is why they keep perpetuating them. If they do find out about these stereotypes they can&#39;t connect the dots. I was reading an article in Vibe last night about Tyler Perry. The man really doesn&#39;t get it. It&#39;s really sad because these people put out images of black people to the world and they can make such a good impact but they don&#39;t :( .Also, what&#39;s even more sad is when black people you know don&#39;t get it either but that&#39;s another story :( .

740461



Can you explain to me please what imagae you believe Tyler is putting out to the world that you believe he should&#39;nt?



Nlight: Thanks for the info. On my way to google!

[chronicity]

Derek "Farnsworth" Watkins went to my high school. He was a senior while I was a freshman, and he was the concert master of our orchestra...which was no easy feat given the talent present. The kid is truly gifted on the violin. My girlfriends and I use to crush on him, not because he was especially cute, but because he was so cool he could get away with murder. :wub:

It is rather disappointing to see him shucking &#39;n jiving on videos, as if that is the best he can offer the world. But I&#39;m also glad that he is making headway in the entertainment industry; he&#39;s a smart guy with an amazingly quirky wit and he deserves success as much as anyone else. Mixed feelings from me, as you can see. I&#39;d much rather see him making music on the violin than dancing around like a scrawny puppet, though.

I think whoever said that black celebrities are unaware of the buffoon image is incorrect. Derek--oops, I mean Farnsworth--has the self-awareness to know exactly how he looks and how that relates to the Black Man as a Buffoon Stereotype. But he probably justifies his image by saying that it is not a minstrel-like caricature; with his bow tie and plaid suit, he can claim his dancing geeky butler image is completely original and different that the other Buffoon Stereotypes we&#39;ve seen.

In other words, celebrities are aware of the images they send out; but they probably find a way to rationalize them as being okay.

[ScoobyGurl]

Originally posted by thighslikewhat@Mar 2 2005, 10:21 AM
Can you explain to me please what imagae you believe Tyler is putting out to the world that you believe he should&#39;nt?
Nlight: Thanks for the info. On my way to google!

740687


<span style='color:blue'>I believe that the Madea image has an actual name. It&#39;s called the Mammy image. You know like "Mammy Two Shoes" in Tom and Jerry and the maid in Gone with the Wind. Madea definitely fits the mold.

"The [mammy] caricature portrayed an obese, coarse, maternal figure. She had great love for her white "family," but often treated her own family with disdain. Although she had children, sometimes many, she was completely desexualized."~Jim Crow Museum of Racist Memorabilia at Ferris State University

With the exception of loving a white family, Madea is "obese", "coarse", "maternal" and "desexualized." This image of black women has been presented to America since Emancipation and it wasn&#39;t even created by us. However, we (not white people) continue to perpetuate it. For lack of better words, it suxs!</span>

[roxygirl]

Originally posted by ScoobyGurl@Mar 2 2005, 03:34 AM
I honestly think that most black celebrities have no clue about the buffoon image or the many other stereotypes that have existed of black people, which is why they keep perpetuating them. If they do find out about these stereotypes they can&#39;t connect the dots. I was reading an article in Vibe last night about Tyler Perry. The man really doesn&#39;t get it. It&#39;s really sad because these people put out images of black people to the world and they can make such a good impact but they don&#39;t :( .

Also, what&#39;s even more sad is when black people you know don&#39;t get it either but that&#39;s another story :( .

740461

These celebrities absolutely know about the buffoon image, but for some of them it&#39;s all about the money.

[ScoobyGurl]

Originally posted by chronicity+Mar 2 2005, 10:59 AM-->
I think whoever said that black celebrities are unaware of the buffoon image is incorrect. Derek--oops, I mean Farnsworth--has the self-awareness to know exactly how he looks and how that relates to the Black Man as a Buffoon Stereotype. But he probably justifies his image by saying that it is not a minstrel-like caricature; with his bow tie and plaid suit, he can claim his dancing geeky butler image is completely original and different that the other Buffoon Stereotypes we&#39;ve seen.

In other words, celebrities are aware of the images they send out; but they probably find a way to rationalize them as being okay.

740754
[/b]


<!--QuoteBegin-roxygirl@Mar 2 2005, 11:58 AM
These celebrities absolutely know about the buffoon image, but for some of them it&#39;s all about the money.

740886

<span style='color:blue'>I would imagine they all know what the buffoon image is (although I highly doubt they know about other common stereotypes of black people but that&#39;s a different thread) but I don&#39;t think they really grasp the concept b/c if they did I don&#39;t think they would so easily portray it in this age. Like if they saw the "Jazz Singer" they would of course say that Al Jolson is being a buffoon but they can&#39;t apply that to themselves b/c in reality they really don&#39;t understand the buffoon image of it&#39;s negative effect on how many black people view themselves. I hope that made sense :dunno: .

ETA: Then again for some I&#39;m sure it truly is about the money <_< .
</span>

[TooXquisite]

I&#39;m confused about this whole buffoon issue all together.

Where do you draw the line between comedy and buffonery?

And can only Black folks be considered a buffoon because surely there are comedians and actors of other races who behave the same, like Robin Williams in Mrs. Doubtfire?

Or are you a buffoon if you&#39;re acting clownish for the amusement of White people?

[chronicity]

Originally posted by TooXquisite@Mar 2 2005, 12:07 PM
Where do you draw the line between comedy and buffonery?

I classify buffoonery as a form of comedy. So I will quickly distinguish the buffoon from the nonbuffoonish comedian.

The way I see it, a buffoon generates laughter at himself: what he&#39;s wearing, how he looks, how he sounds. It doesn&#39;t matter what he&#39;s saying; people laugh at the buffoon like they laugh at a clown capering.
A big reason buffoons are funny is that they do things most people have too much pride and dignity to do. A buffoon will do anything for a laugh, even if he has to humilate himself.

A nonbuffoonish comedian relies on wit, timing, and insight. For the most part, you aren&#39;t supposed to laugh at them. The funny things they say are not funny purely on a superfical ("he sounded funny") level. When you laugh at what they do, it is not just because they look like a fool. A nonbuffoonish comedian&#39;s content is valued over his presentation.

I think of it like this: as a boyfriend, who would embarrass me more at a party, a buffoon (Farsnworth, let&#39;s say) or a nonbuffoonish comedian (Chris Rock)? Both would probably have everyone in stitches, but I&#39;d rather be associated with the comedian than the buffoon.

[ScoobyGurl]

Originally posted by TooXquisite@Mar 2 2005, 12:07 PM
I&#39;m confused about this whole buffoon issue all together.

Where do you draw the line between comedy and buffonery?

And can only Black folks be considered a buffoon because surely there are comedians and actors of other races who behave the same, like Robin Williams in Mrs. Doubtfire?

Or are you a buffoon if you&#39;re acting clownish for the amusement of White people?

740899


I don&#39;t know if the issue is really buffoonery (although we&#39;re focusing on stereotypes that are buffonery), per se, or rather the dehumanizing, racist stereotypes (which all have names btw) that were originally created by whites to justify their behavior towards blacks and that some blacks now perpetuate by themselves. Some of these stereotypes are buffoons and some aren&#39;t (such as the brute or the jezebel). What they all do is promote a negative image of blacks. None of these images promotes anything positive about black people. No one really thinks highly of a buffoon (whether black or white). Yes, they&#39;re funny but ultimately we think they&#39;re stupid. Too often black comedy just relies on those buffonish images.

[Barklel]

Originally posted by Peaches@Mar 1 2005, 11:21 PM
That&#39;s a good question. Some people question whether or not Dave Chapelle is a baffoon and also Wayne Brady.

Maybe you&#39;re not a baffoon if you aren&#39;t afraid to make jokes about white people. On In Living Color they did that all the time. Baffoon&#39;s run around shucking and jiving and "yassa boss"-ing. If you&#39;re smacking white folks upside the head and saying "Homie don&#39;t play that", then I guess you&#39;re not a baffoon.

740230



I&#39;m w/ you girl. I peeped your post on When Black is Embarassing too.... Having to do w/ Maddea.... I haven&#39;t seen Tyler Perry&#39;s previous "works" but I have to tell you..... Diary of A Mad Black Woman was EXCELLENT!!! I wasn&#39;t going either because I pre-judged the movie as ghetto and buffonery... but my mother wanted to see it so we went last Friday (2/26) .... Boy was I wrong... it had it&#39;s ghetto moments but overall the movie was great. It was a tear jerker. You have GOT to see it!!
I don&#39;t think In Living Color is shuckin&#39; and jivin&#39; because they did make fun of everyone.. and there were whites on the show actin&#39; a fool just like everyone else. Now Cedric&#39;s show... I&#39;m glad it was canceled.... he was a joke.... shuckin&#39; and jivin&#39; like NO tomorrow....... That show I didn&#39;t support, as well as these ghetto flicks coming out...prime example Soul Plane... I don&#39;t care WHO produced it... I don&#39;t care if it was a Brotha trying to make a buck.... I will not ever see that movie. I love Most Def for the roles he&#39;s chosen to play... that&#39;s a conscious brotha right there.... I love him!

[Barklel]

Originally posted by chronicity@Mar 2 2005, 12:41 PM
I classify buffoonery as a form of comedy. So I will quickly distinguish the buffoon from the nonbuffoonish comedian.

The way I see it, a buffoon generates laughter at himself: what he&#39;s wearing, how he looks, how he sounds. It doesn&#39;t matter what he&#39;s saying; people laugh at the buffoon like they laugh at a clown capering.
A big reason buffoons are funny is that they do things most people have too much pride and dignity to do. A buffoon will do anything for a laugh, even if he has to humilate himself.

A nonbuffoonish comedian relies on wit, timing, and insight. For the most part, you aren&#39;t supposed to laugh at them. The funny things they say are not funny purely on a superfical ("he sounded funny") level. When you laugh at what they do, it is not just because they look like a fool. A nonbuffoonish comedian&#39;s content is valued over his presentation.

I think of it like this: as a boyfriend, who would embarrass me more at a party, a buffoon (Farsnworth, let&#39;s say) or a nonbuffoonish comedian (Chris Rock)? Both would probably have everyone in stitches, but I&#39;d rather be associated with the comedian than the buffoon.

740928




EXACTLY!! I like what you&#39;re saying! :smil3f72836ee752e:

[sonce]

Originally posted by librarising@Mar 2 2005, 05:09 AM
And if that makes you and your people look like fools, then so be it &#39;cause the dollars more important. ;)

740308


Seriously :rolleyes: I think that &#39;get paid anyhow&#39; mentality is more destructive than anything else.

[Peaches]

I think that you have to look at the history of baffoonery to make a judgment about what it is or isn&#39;t. In order for black people to get roles in the past, they had to shuck, jive, shuffle, tap dance, and cut the monkey for white folks just to make a dollar. I mean hey.. we used to have to perm our hair just to get jobs right? :dunno: Same thing.

It&#39;s considered disgraceful to do this now that we understand the concept of exploitation. We no longer have to cater to the whims, lusts, stereotypes, and fantasies of white people to pad our pocketbooks. We can now demand self-respect, decent pay, and the right to be multi-dimensional and realistic in our self-portrayals. When we still see people shucking, jiving, and cutting the monkey, we question why they&#39;re doing that and call them bafoons.

Personally, I don&#39;t like comedies. If I want comedy, I go to the Comedy Club in town. If I want theater, I go to a play. If I want to see a movie, I find something that makes me think or some kind of tearjerker. I&#39;m just not a comedy movie person.

I don&#39;t think that every single black comedy out there is a work of baffoonery, but I do think that most of them are. These producers know damn well that black people bootleg these movies. They&#39;re looking for white box office dollars when they make them. They&#39;re shucking, jiving, cutting the fool, and hoping that some white person will think that it&#39;s funny.

[swingbolder]

We can&#39;t just blame white audiences for the success of these comedies. Black people may be bootlegging them, but we are also paying money to see these movies in the theatre, and we also rent them when the DVD comes out.


How do you know the drawing on the left is meant to be a buffoon??

During the minstrel era (late 19th cent., early 20th) it was common to depict black men in a derogatory fashion by showing them in a top hat and coattails. The juxtaposition of formal, elegant clothing on a lowly, shucking and jiving brotha was supposed to be comedic (and I guess it was, to a lot of people bc these shows were very popular).

[pwr_puff]

Originally posted by ScoobyGurl@Mar 2 2005, 10:51 AM
<span style='color:blue'>I believe that the Madea image has an actual name. It&#39;s called the Mammy image. You know like "Mammy Two Shoes" in Tom and Jerry and the maid in Gone with the Wind. Madea definitely fits the mold.

"The [mammy] caricature portrayed an obese, coarse, maternal figure. She had great love for her white "family," but often treated her own family with disdain. Although she had children, sometimes many, she was completely desexualized."~Jim Crow Museum of Racist Memorabilia at Ferris State University

With the exception of loving a white family, Madea is "obese", "coarse", "maternal" and "desexualized." This image of black women has been presented to America since Emancipation and it wasn&#39;t even created by us. However, we (not white people) continue to perpetuate it. For lack of better words, it suxs!</span>

740870

-I&#39;m going to have to respectfully disagree with you. Mammy and Madea shouldnt be interchanged. Mammy is something Y.T.Mann gave the black culture. that&#39;s their version of our Queen Mothers. to me, Madea = grandmother or Big Momma. Madea to me, is a loving caring title. it stands for MyDear.
-Ive been to a couple of Tyler Perry plays he is very funny. i dont really see him shucking and jiving for the man. Yea Madea is brash, but i know of some family members (my own and some of friends)who are just like that.
-but dont get me wrong, there are some actors and comedians that make me want to hang my head in shame.
It&#39;s considered disgraceful to do this now that we understand the concept of exploitation. We no longer have to cater to the whims, lusts, stereotypes, and fantasies of white people to pad our pocketbooks. i think so too. i just dont think that Madea and Mammy are the same thing.

[scurrie]

Originally posted by chronicity@Mar 2 2005, 12:41 PM
I classify buffoonery as a form of comedy. So I will quickly distinguish the buffoon from the nonbuffoonish comedian.

The way I see it, a buffoon generates laughter at himself: what he&#39;s wearing, how he looks, how he sounds. It doesn&#39;t matter what he&#39;s saying; people laugh at the buffoon like they laugh at a clown capering.
A big reason buffoons are funny is that they do things most people have too much pride and dignity to do. A buffoon will do anything for a laugh, even if he has to humilate himself.

A nonbuffoonish comedian relies on wit, timing, and insight. For the most part, you aren&#39;t supposed to laugh at them. The funny things they say are not funny purely on a superfical ("he sounded funny") level. When you laugh at what they do, it is not just because they look like a fool. A nonbuffoonish comedian&#39;s content is valued over his presentation.

I think of it like this: as a boyfriend, who would embarrass me more at a party, a buffoon (Farsnworth, let&#39;s say) or a nonbuffoonish comedian (Chris Rock)? Both would probably have everyone in stitches, but I&#39;d rather be associated with the comedian than the buffoon.

740928




:rolleyes: :smil3f72836ee752e: :smil3f72836ee752e: well said.

[napturallyme]

Farsworth I can see being a buffoon. This man has some business smarts, but I don&#39;t like the way he parades around. Madea, I have to disagree with. A mammy image to me is like the lady in Gone to the Wind, one catering to the needs of white folks. Many of us have known women similar to Madea. According to Tyler, she&#39;s a mix between his grandmother and his aunt. I think many people have a problem with Madea because it&#39;s a man playing her, that honestly does not bother me.

[longtonatural]

Wow...this topic is WAY old...but still relevant.

As a performer, I understand that actors are often given wonderful opportunities to play characters that are considered to be stereotypical. The choices you make are defined by your character. And many times, Black actors are not given the props they deserve until they stoop to playing those stereotypical roles. I mean, really, how many movies did Denzel have to make until he won an Oscar?? Malcolm X wasn&#39;t good enough...he had to play a BRUTE NEGRO in Training Day. And Halle had to stoop to playing a Tragic Mulatto/Sapphire character to get her nod.

It&#39;s sad to see people do what they feel they have to do to get the money or respect they deserve. The fact of the matter is that there is always going to be someone willing to play whatever role, no matter how demeaning. I am just glad that I will never be that person. I do what I do for the love of the art, not myself in the art.

As for Tyler Perry...I&#39;m not really fond of the Madea series. I think it is millenium minstrelsy. However, Tyler is bringing black people back to theatre. Maybe some of the people who go to see his plays will say to themselves..."Hey, there&#39;s another play going on over at __________ Theatre. I think there are black people in it. It&#39;s not Tyler Perry, and I&#39;ve never heard of "A Raisin In the Sun," but let&#39;s go and see what it&#39;s about!" Anything to get them there.

[Supersugar]

As for Tyler Perry...I&#39;m not really fond of the Madea series. I think it is millenium minstrelsy. However, Tyler is bringing black people back to theatre.
[/b]
I understand that Madea is clearly a relatable character, or she wouldn&#39;t be so popular. But I&#39;ve seen Tyler Perry&#39;s plays, and they&#39;re embarrasingly bad. Bad acting, bad delivery, bad timing and bad directing. I&#39;ve seen high-school plays done better. That said, most pepole who enjoy his work are getting the good message behind the carrying-on, so I suppose the point&#39;s being made, somehow.