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amalah9
02-15-2003, 11:25 PM
Many African-Americans have given up Christianity because they feel that it was a method that the Slavemaster used to put them in psychological bondage. They also may feel that Blacks were not Christians before coming against their will to America. I can understand and see the logic in the African Americans who feel this way. What are you guys thoughts on this?

qsakira
02-15-2003, 11:30 PM
I believe so..........
as I posted on another board, "The crack dealer is not going to lead the addict to the rehab."

afrikankween
02-15-2003, 11:37 PM
It can be argued that christianity existed in Afrika before the slave trade. However, that was not the form that is practiced here in the west, and the form practiced here in the west was used to subjugate and marginalize Afrikans AND it continues today. That is not the only reason I gave up Christianity though, there is just too many contradcitions and historical accounts that disprove it.

This is my opinion, and I am not going to debate with anyone.

tjolims
02-15-2003, 11:40 PM
It can be argued that christianity existed in Afrika before the slave trade.

Correct. Anyone know anything about the Ethiopian Coptic church?

lilkinkyc
02-16-2003, 02:20 AM
It can be argued that christianity existed in Afrika before the slave trade. However, that was not the form that is practiced here in the west, and the form practiced here in the west was used to subjugate and marginalize Afrikans AND it continues today. That is not the only reason I gave up Christianity though, there is just too many contradcitions and historical accounts that disprove it.

This is my opinion, and I am not going to debate with anyone.

My thoughts as well!

rozlips
02-16-2003, 03:01 AM
I relinquished Christianity (actually all formal religions) because of its' sujugation of women, not its' use as a tool in slavery. Slavery is not an Article of Faith in most religions. Subjugation of women is.

LotsOfLocs
02-16-2003, 05:46 PM
I believe if you are an African descendant of West Africans, yes Christianity which is practiced today is the White mans religion, way of thought, and cultural practices. The White man's Christianity IMO is also backward. They did not understand what they were throwing together, which is why it is so confusing. Christianity's source is African religion. The White man got it all wrong. It is the slave master's religion. No West Africans were Christians. We had our own African traditional practices.

lovinblackness
02-17-2003, 12:50 AM
No it is not. Yes it is. How is that? Some forms of christianity, Id venture to say most of what is practiced in the states, western Europe and South America is. Much of what is practiced in Eastern Europe, the Arab countries and North and East Africa is not. There are many varieties of christianity so I dont think its fair to lump em all together when discussing this particular issue.

NaturalSerenitee
02-17-2003, 02:00 AM
I stopped practicing christianity because it was a tool slavemasters used to coerce slaves into submission, and because it preaches and encourages, nay, DEMANDS to this very day the subjugation and submission of women, the domination of animals and the de*****tion of almost any and all fringe groups.

LotsOfLocs
02-17-2003, 04:30 PM
I stopped practicing christianity because it was a tool slavemasters used to coerce slaves into submission

ITA!

tjolims
02-17-2003, 05:11 PM
Ook...here we go...

I would venture to say that those of you who deny Christianity because it is "the slavemasters religion" are looking at it from far too narrow-minded a point of view. Perhaps the religious aspects of Christianity have been twisted to subjugate women, black people, etc. BUT the philosophical and spiritual principles behind Christianity in it's purest form are far higher than that, therefore they have no bearing on or effect from purely physical things like race and gender. Are you denying Christianity based on what it is, or on what others have told you it is?

Just my two cents.

rozlips
02-17-2003, 05:29 PM
I am mindful of the fact that religion can be twisted to serve all types of nefarious purposes. That's why I don't see Christianity as the "slavemaster's religion," it was merely twisted that way. However, the very Scriptures themselves preach the subordination of women. Unless the Bible itself has been written incorrectly, it's there in black and white. It's not a matter of interpretation, it is there.

LotsOfLocs
02-17-2003, 05:39 PM
Ook...here we go...

I would venture to say that those of you who deny Christianity because it is "the slavemasters religion" are looking at it from far too narrow-minded a point of view. Perhaps the religious aspects of Christianity have been twisted to subjugate women, black people, etc. BUT the philosophical and spiritual principles behind Christianity in it's purest form are far higher than that, therefore they have no bearing on or effect from purely physical things like race and gender. Are you denying Christianity based on what it is, or on what others have told you it is?

Just my two cents.

I know what Christianity is, a flawed spin off of traditional African religion, especially Khemetic religion. I don't deny Christianity because it the slave masters religion. I deny it because I seek the truth, I prefer to go to the source, Africa. Not backward Western culture. The purest form of Christianity is not Christianity at all.

GalaxyGirl2010
02-18-2003, 03:49 PM
It can be argued that christianity existed in Afrika before the slave trade.

Correct. Anyone know anything about the Ethiopian Coptic church? The coptics are a sect of christians in the gnostic tradition so their rituals are more closer to the so called orthodox traditions of christianity (such as orthodox greek or russian)

Papillion
02-20-2003, 08:54 PM
Christianity, as well as Islam are the religions of slavery.

http://www.africawithin.com/clarke/part30f10.htm
http://debate.org.uk/topics/trtracts/t12.htm

Indeed, slavery still exists in Africa:

http://allafrica.com/stories/200001280130.html


Both religions have enslaved those who practiced African tribal religions.
Both religions (perhaps all) are suspect.

lovinblackness
02-20-2003, 11:13 PM
Let's not forget all the Africans, believers in their own native religions who sold members of other tribes with other beliefs, also 'native' religions into slavery. Does that mean that polytheism is the religion of slavery?

Neither Christianity nor Islam is the RELIGION of slavery. Slaves were bought and sold all over the world INCLUDING africa even before Jesus or Muhammad stepped foot on this earth. The 'religion' of slavery is commerce. The religion of the slavemaster for our ancestors, which was the original question asked, was western christianity.

Papillion you used a christian proselytization website to 'prove' the evils of Islam? Poor choice. Like asking Jerry Falwell about the benefits of paganism.

LotsOfLocs
02-21-2003, 01:18 PM
Let's not forget all the Africans, believers in their own native religions who sold members of other tribes with other beliefs, also 'native' religions into slavery. Does that mean that polytheism is the religion of slavery?



African religion is not polytheistic. African religion is not the slave master's religion because it was created for us, by us. It was never used to convert and destroy African culture. It was never used to institutionalize slavery. The same cannot be said for Christianity or Islam.

strawwberryz
02-21-2003, 05:07 PM
Great topic!
Christianity is not to blame for how people who call themselves Chrsitians act. Funny how missionaries who came to Africa with the bible in one hand and a gun in the other were supposed Christians...KKK are supposed chirctians...many old churches justified slavery through the bible and believed god created black people to be inferior and treated as such by distroting scriptures.
On the other hand, in that light, I can see people rejecting Christianity because of the bad examples of christians but what religion has not had a bad past or a few bad examples.
Every religion has its fanatics.

afrikankween
02-21-2003, 05:13 PM
I dont think the selling of human beings, the transport of them to another country, the deaths of millions on the way to a new place, and the continued use of a foreign religious tools to justify their enslavement a few bad examples.

lovinblackness
02-21-2003, 05:24 PM
Let's not forget all the Africans, believers in their own native religions who sold members of other tribes with other beliefs, also 'native' religions into slavery. Does that mean that polytheism is the religion of slavery?



African religion is not polytheistic. African religion is not the slave master's religion because it was created for us, by us. It was never used to convert and destroy African culture. It was never used to institutionalize slavery. The same cannot be said for Christianity or Islam.

That's what I said lotsoflocs. Reread my post. As far as african religion not being polytheistic. Well, I'd take issue with you there since there is no one religious tradition which encompasses the entire continent. There are DEF. examples of polytheism in Africa and the use of slavery in those cultures. Ancient Egypt for one. For the Jews, polytheism was def. the religion of the slavemasters. But that is not the case for OUR ancestors, which was the point of the discussion and I concur that its true that some version of christianity was the belief system followed by the men and women who enslaved us. And that Islam was the religion of many of the men who captured our ancestors and sold them into slavery, it was also the religion, and had been so for a very long time of many of the slaves before they were forced across the Atlantic.

afrikankween
02-21-2003, 05:29 PM
give me examples of polytheistic afrikan traditional reiligions?
also show me how the slavery in amongs afrikans was the same kind of dehumanizing slavery that happened in the americas?

Antigua
02-21-2003, 05:30 PM
Let's not forget all the Africans, believers in their own native religions who sold members of other tribes with other beliefs, also 'native' religions into slavery. Does that mean that polytheism is the religion of slavery?



African religion is not polytheistic. African religion is not the slave master's religion because it was created for us, by us. It was never used to convert and destroy African culture. It was never used to institutionalize slavery. The same cannot be said for Christianity or Islam.

I agree 100%.

LotsOfLocs
02-21-2003, 05:32 PM
give me examples of polytheistic afrikan traditional reiligions?


Please do, I have yet to find a polytheistic African religion/spirituality. Polytheist is some bull Whites made up. Their pea brains failed to understand.

LotsOfLocs
02-21-2003, 05:34 PM
No one is blaming slavery on Islam or Christianity. But the fact remains that Christianity is what the slave masters used against Africans. The Arabs and the Christians were the first to institutionalize slavery, OK. Not Africans.

Antigua
02-21-2003, 05:35 PM
Let's not forget all the Africans, believers in their own native religions who sold members of other tribes with other beliefs, also 'native' religions into slavery. Does that mean that polytheism is the religion of slavery?



African religion is not polytheistic. African religion is not the slave master's religion because it was created for us, by us. It was never used to convert and destroy African culture. It was never used to institutionalize slavery. The same cannot be said for Christianity or Islam.

That's what I said lotsoflocs. Reread my post. As far as african religion not being polytheistic. Well, I'd take issue with you there since there is no one religious tradition which encompasses the entire continent. There are DEF. examples of polytheism in Africa and the use of slavery in those cultures. Ancient Egypt for one. For the Jews, polytheism was def. the religion of the slavemasters. But that is not the case for OUR ancestors, which was the point of the discussion and I concur that its true that some version of christianity was the belief system followed by the men and women who enslaved us. And that Islam was the religion of many of the men who captured our ancestors and sold them into slavery, it was also the religion, and had been so for a very long time of many of the slaves before they were forced across the Atlantic.

From what I've learned polytheism isn't as wide spread in Africa as people believe. Most of what were called polytheistic religions were just religions that were misinterpreted by Europeans that came to Africa. I believe that the majority of traditional African religions were monotheistic.

LotsOfLocs
02-21-2003, 05:37 PM
From what I've learned polytheism isn't as wide spread in Africa as people believe. Most of what were called polytheistic religions were just religions that were misinterpreted by Europeans that came to Africa. I believe that the majority of traditional African religions were monotheistic.

They are not monthiestic or polytheistic. These two European terms dont even grasps what African religion is about. African religion dont need or use these terms. Its more about cosmology and understanding the big picture. Different things working as one whole.

elleebeme5
02-23-2003, 05:28 PM
I am so glad that someone introduced me to Christianity. I don't feel the least subjugated, I just feel loved by Christ who gave His life for me.

lovinblackness
02-23-2003, 06:30 PM
give me examples of polytheistic afrikan traditional reiligions?
also show me how the slavery in amongs afrikans was the same kind of dehumanizing slavery that happened in the americas?


Yuroba in Nigeria:
Obtala, Olodumare, Oduduwa

Ancient Egyptian:
Ogdoad (kek and Kauket, Heh and Hauhet, Amun and Amaunet, Nun and Naunet) each existing before Ra. Isis, Osiris, Horus

Edo (benin):
Osanobua, Ogiuwu, Olokun

As far as I know, there was probably never in history a more brutal slavery than what our ancestors faced in the Americas. Maybe the africans and arabs did not know what we would be facing in the Americas. They probably thought slavery here was just like what they practiced in their own lands. Does that absolve them?

skchocolate
02-24-2003, 01:46 AM
Great great great topic!!!

i believe that a lot of people have very valid point? i am only twenty so i would be i guess what you would call " a young person" so this is something as i am growing into women hood have been dealing with. becuase when i go to church and listen to some things that are said it doesnt make since. i have heard things like if you are not christian and except christ you are going to hell? my question always was what about the the african back in africa who was not introduced to christianity? what about before christianity? are all of our ancestors going to hell? what about native americans and their religoius belief are they damned to hell?

this idea reminds of the idea of the "white " man when the raped the native americans of their lands. believing just because these people dont talk like we do and look like us thy are savages and were doing thema favor by killing them and attemting to strip them of their culture and lands. this is called manifest destiny

so i have a lot of issues right now with being "christian" lots of things just dont add up but i havent dump the faith just of yet. im still learning im still growing and we shall see!!!

skchocolate
02-24-2003, 01:50 AM
Great great great topic!!!

i believe that a lot of people who have written have very valid points? i am only twenty so i would be, i guess what you would call " a young person". this is something that as i am growing into womenhood, i have been dealing with. when i go to church and listen to some things that are said they dont make since. i have heard things like if you are not christian and except christ you are going to hell? my question always was what about the the africans back in africa who was not introduced to christianity? what about before christianity? are all of our ancestors going to hell? what about native americans and their religoius beliefs are they damned to hell?

this idea reminds me of the horrible idea by the "white " man when they raped the native americans of their lands. believing just because these people dont talk like we do and look like us they are savages and were doing them a favor by killing them and attemting to strip them of their culture and lands. this is called manifest destiny

so i have a lot of issues right now with being "christian" lots of things just dont add up but i havent dump the faith just of yet. im still learning im still growing and we shall see!!!



learning is the key empowerment is the door

skchocolate
02-24-2003, 02:08 AM
i dont know about anyone else but i am angered when i watch the discovery channel and see countries in africa that are dying of starvation. countries that dont have the means for medical attention. people are dying left and right. and then these "save the world" christians and not only them other religions do it also. run to these countries and tell them we will help you we will set up schools and feed you and medicate you but worship our god. leave your faith so you will live. this isnt anything that i have made up or heard about i have seen this time and time again, read about it and it angers me. i see it as what if i was dying and someone said to me i wil save you but say that you love eating dirt first. if you are going to save me save me. if your god says that you are to help people and be a servant than do it dont throw in this hidden disclaimer.

or how about right now in the deepest parts of the rainforest we still have indegenous african tribes. they dont wear clothes the dont use any thing modern the only thing they do is eat and hunt. i have seen one culture who dont even drink water they dig up this sort of root where they drink from they are strong and they have lasted thousands and thousands of years. its a beautiful thing. but these tribes are being forced out of their lands and indigenous state becuase of the tearing down of the rainforest. and beacuse of these "europeans/ white men" who go to these tribes and give them guns. the tribes take the guns and kill off all the animals then they die of starvation beacause they have killed off a years worth of meat in one month. so after they give them the guns and they begin to die these white people go in and "save" them and get them all updated to culture show them "tv, wheel, and their new white god!!!" know tell me these people dont know what they are doing.

these tribes know that there are technology they know they dont have to live off the land but the continue to do so and i believe that this is a threat to todays society. where they want us to believe we [/b]need technology to survive to abandon the lands embrace technology and the all mighty dollar but you see as you see a famous strong native american once said

"once all of the land, water, and animals are gone you cannot eat money"[/b]

frau
02-24-2003, 02:38 AM
i think the whole concept of god and religion is man made. i am the daughter of an united methodist pastor. i spent 8 years in catholic schools, two of them in college. if there is a god i think it is impossible for us to know "him." i imagine humans trying to know god is equivalent to ants trying to undrstand computers or intrest rates. our minds limit our capacity to know or understand something so great. people really don't read the bible, if they did they'd become nonbelievers like me. the bible serves man's purpose not god's. i can't help but live according to tenets of christianity-our country was built according to it's beliefs. i sometimes attend church service, a good pastor can be very inspiring. i guess i fall more in line with agnostic as opposed to atheist.
read my signature line:

LotsOfLocs
02-24-2003, 01:31 PM
give me examples of polytheistic afrikan traditional reiligions?
also show me how the slavery in amongs afrikans was the same kind of dehumanizing slavery that happened in the americas?


Yuroba in Nigeria:
Obtala, Olodumare, Oduduwa

Ancient Egyptian:
Ogdoad (kek and Kauket, Heh and Hauhet, Amun and Amaunet, Nun and Naunet) each existing before Ra. Isis, Osiris, Horus

Edo (benin):
Osanobua, Ogiuwu, Olokun

As far as I know, there was probably never in history a more brutal slavery than what our ancestors faced in the Americas. Maybe the africans and arabs did not know what we would be facing in the Americas. They probably thought slavery here was just like what they practiced in their own lands. Does that absolve them?

When did these people institutionalize slavery? What exactly is Ogdoad?

afrikankween
02-24-2003, 08:12 PM
Try again with Obatala and Oldumare. Not the same. Try reading the Ifa creation stories.

lovinblackness
02-24-2003, 10:33 PM
Try again with Obatala and Oldumare. Not the same. Try reading the Ifa creation stories.

I did read the creation story, that is where I got the information. My point IS that they are not the same. But this is way ot...

afrikankween
02-24-2003, 10:41 PM
Try again with Obatala and Oldumare. Not the same. Try reading the Ifa creation stories.

I did read the creation story, that is where I got the information. My point IS that they are not the same. But this is way ot...

Sorry I am confused. I asked for examples of polytheistic religion in Afrika and you listed Yoruba~ then you stated Obatala and Oldumare. So you quote me to let me know they arent polytheistic? :?:

pheonixphire
02-24-2003, 11:16 PM
Ook...here we go...

I would venture to say that those of you who deny Christianity because it is "the slavemasters religion" are looking at it from far too narrow-minded a point of view. Perhaps the religious aspects of Christianity have been twisted to subjugate women, black people, etc. BUT the philosophical and spiritual principles behind Christianity in it's purest form are far higher than that, therefore they have no bearing on or effect from purely physical things like race and gender. Are you denying Christianity based on what it is, or on what others have told you it is?

Just my two cents.
okay here is my thoughts on this matter
i think i agree with you on what you said

i dont not think christianty is a slave mans religioen..i think god exsited in africa long before the white man came there. i dont think out ansesteros would have contiued this faith if it was really diffrnet from the one they had at home..i thin kwhat they realized is that they had the same reigion just in a diffrent langage... i think the only thing that the slave master really did was force the africans to speak english..and when they did take on the english launguage they trandfered thier spiritual belifes in english too. i dont think god changes from launge to laungueg or from region to region..i do think there may also be more gods depending on here you go..but the god that is served in chrisianity is the same god no matter where you or what language you speak.

lovinblackness
02-25-2003, 01:35 AM
Try again with Obatala and Oldumare. Not the same. Try reading the Ifa creation stories.

I did read the creation story, that is where I got the information. My point IS that they are not the same. But this is way ot...

Sorry I am confused. I asked for examples of polytheistic religion in Afrika and you listed Yoruba~ then you stated Obatala and Oldumare. So you quote me to let me know they arent polytheistic? :?:

Well I am confused now too. I must have misunderstood you. You said try again... they are not the same. I thought that you were saying that Obatala and Oldumare were not the same diety and I was agreeing with you that they are not the same diety and therefore more than one diety = polytheism.

From the sources that I have read (a few creation stories, sources on Yuroba from the perspective of believers and one encyclopedia of religious dieties) Olodumare is the first and created the others. Olodumare asked Orishala to create the first earth, but Oduduwa beat him to it... Obatala is a divinity (or god if you will) responsible for the molding/creation of the human being its more extensive than that but you seem to know something about this religion so I won't continue.

Instead of going back and forth with these questions why don't you explain to me how you can have more than one diety and not be polytheistic? I don't mean this sarcastically if there is something I am missing here just point it out. Are you saying that it is like Christianity with the many (specifically three in that case) in one concept?

Sorry guys for hijaking the thread :wink:

afrikankween
02-25-2003, 02:18 AM
Ok girl I see where we got confused, sorry! :lol:
LMAO

I conted that Ifa/Yoruba is not a polytheistic religion. For simplicity sake, I would say that you can compare Oldumare to the Orishas, in the way of Jesus and Trinity. They are aspects of him. Oldumare is GOD. However he is distanced from the living world, and the Orishas/Energies, similar to saints, has a speciality realm of power. That is on the general scheme. It can also be broken down on a personal level, since each person has a guardian orisha/head.

LotsOfLocs
02-25-2003, 01:34 PM
African religion can be looked at as One Of Many. We have to look at the big picture. Not the closed minded Western way of thought. White people called us polytheistic because they took thousands of years to understand that matter and enegy are the same thing. Jesuit priest called the Zulu's ignorant for thinking this, called us polytheistic. Africans knew this, just like everything else Whites claimed to have discovered. The energy is in different forms but are the same thing. Now, this is learned in science class. The creator manifests himself through me and you, two different people. But guess what, its still the same Supreme Creator. We have been conditioned to believe the lies about ourselves and our religion.

Yeshuafan
02-25-2003, 09:50 PM
Are you kidding? The first Christians were Ethiopians. Last time I checked, Ethiopia was in Africa. Don't let stupid "racist" crap keep you from embracing Jesus Christ.

Midoria
02-26-2003, 06:22 AM
Are you kidding? The first Christians were Ethiopians. Last time I checked, Ethiopia was in Africa.


Yup. The Coptic Church, now called the Tewahido (sp?) Church, is about 1000 years older than European churches. In fact, I just told someone else that in another thread a few days ago. Granted, they do things a bit differently, but they are still Christians.

Amazing how folks cry 'rape' whenever we talk about Africa. Moses was married to an Ethiopian woman. This is common knowledge.

I saw a show on TV about it a few weeks ago and was ecstatic! I watched the whole thing in awe. It followed a Black man's journey to Ethiopia in search of the true originis of African Christians. He met with their religious leaders, toured their churches, and discussed the general history. I didn't know Ethiopia was the 2nd country in the world to adopt Christianity as their official state religion. You learn something new everyday!

I don't even remember what channel it was on. I wish I had gotten it on tape! :( I know PBS has done something similar. I will hit up their website and see what's going on. You have me interested again. :)

pheonixphire
02-26-2003, 11:33 AM
African religion can be looked at as One Of Many. We have to look at the big picture. Not the closed minded Western way of thought. White people called us polytheistic because they took thousands of years to understand that matter and enegy are the same thing. Jesuit priest called the Zulu's ignorant for thinking this, called us polytheistic. Africans knew this, just like everything else Whites claimed to have discovered. The energy is in different forms but are the same thing. Now, this is learned in science class. The creator manifests himself through me and you, two different people. But guess what, its still the same Supreme Creator. We have been conditioned to believe the lies about ourselves and our religion.
girl you have really said a mouf full :P ...preach on cuz i am really learnin something from you sistah!

happidaz
02-27-2003, 05:05 AM
GOD IS GOOD ALL THE TIME...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I have learned that success is to be measured not so much by the position that one has reached in life as by the obstacles which he has overcome while trying to succeed. Out of the hard and unusual struggle through which he is compelled to pass, he gets a strength, a confidence, that one misses whose pathway is comparatively smooth by reason of birth and race."--Booker T. Washington--

deecoily
02-27-2003, 07:22 AM
White people called us polytheistic because they took thousands of years to understand that matter and energy are the same thing.

So true. Everything is one.

Wendy
02-27-2003, 02:12 PM
I don't beleive it to be the "slavemasters religion" but a religion that was twisted by the slavemasters.

skchocolate
02-27-2003, 06:16 PM
the statement about how the white man did not know matter and energy was one in the same is making me mad :mad:

for the simple fact im taking physics and i have to listens to how newton thought this up first and that firs and how the apple fell :roll: and wa la they (whites) new it all. im sitting there listening LIES LIES ALL LIES I TELL YOU :mad: :mad:

feels good to be informed :wink:

starchild
02-27-2003, 06:53 PM
not to get off point, sorry, but about the energy and one thing. it is so amazing how our people knew that, DNA replication and the sirius star with out having a microscope or so-called "education". I believe that God revealed himself to his true people and that is why all of the civilizations and invention mainly come from Africa . Africans knew him, if we want to humanize him, God is hard to pinpoint of name because he is what he is.

That is why spirtually we have to look to the ancestors cause they know the truth. My 2 cents.

LotsOfLocs
02-27-2003, 07:05 PM
the statement about how the white man did not know matter and energy was one in the same is making me mad :mad:

for the simple fact im taking physics and i have to listens to how newton thought this up first and that firs and how the apple fell :roll: and wa la they (whites) new it all. im sitting there listening LIES LIES ALL LIES I TELL YOU :mad: :mad:

feels good to be informed :wink:

I have science this semester too. I hate it because its all lies. I just take a book out or something and read.

DivineSpirals
03-01-2003, 07:33 PM
I believe if you are an African descendant of West Africans, yes Christianity which is practiced today is the White mans religion, way of thought, and cultural practices. The White man's Christianity IMO is also backward. They did not understand what they were throwing together, which is why it is so confusing. Christianity's source is African religion. The White man got it all wrong. It is the slave master's religion. No West Africans were Christians. We had our own African traditional practices.

Yes, this is a tricky question when one assumes that today's Christianity is the same as the Christianity that existed long ago in parts of Africa. I rejected Christinaity becasue "it's the white man's religion"...initially. But after a while, I came to understand it's history a bit more, but still decided against it because it is not metaphysically fulfilling to me. Personally, I like more "self-oriented" religions with a family/communal theme. Christianity is very communal, but it is so Jesus(other person)-centric.

DivineSpirals
03-01-2003, 07:39 PM
i think the whole concept of god and religion is man made.

I agree. Concepts themselves are tools for understanding our universe.


i am the daughter of an united methodist pastor. i spent 8 years in catholic schools, two of them in college. if there is a god i think it is impossible for us to know "him." i imagine humans trying to know god is equivalent to ants trying to undrstand computers or intrest rates. our minds limit our capacity to know or understand something so great.

I disagree. If ants wanted to learn computers (althought I can't imagine why), they would come up with a methodology to translate computer-ease into ant-ese, the same way we take metaphysical things and translate them into symbols, numbers, stories, personas, etc. We can know "him" depending on our approach. Why shouldn't we know "him"...after all, God is everything. Aren't we little pieces of that "everything"?

tangytic
03-20-2003, 03:02 PM
You know I realize that life certainly is a journey of learning. I was talking with a friend about religion and she threw this out to me. She said that she believes that Jesus and the 12 disciples simply represent one full cycle (12 months=1 year). Basically she said if you look at many of the old pictures of the Last Supper you always see Jesus in the middle with a halo over him and light illuminating around him. She said this is because he represents the sun. She said that there are usually six disciples on either side of him in groups of three’s and each group of three is having dialogue amongst each other. She said each three represents a season sort of like three months represent a quarter. At the end you have one full year (12 months). If you include Jesus that makes 13. She said that the number 13 represents an Elevation because it is the completion of one full cycle and the beginning of another one. She said that this is why the Jews always have their Bharmitzpha when the child is age 13. She said that when the Europeans took this symbolism from the African beliefs they made it literal making these people real when in fact the Africans used these type of symbolisms to increase their comprehension of the cycles of life. So when the ancestors talked about the story of Horace and Isis and how Horace was chopped up into 13 pieces and spread all over the world it was not because anyone name Horace or Isis actually existed again it is used to understand the cycle’s in life. She said that the ancestors spent many generations looking at the universe the sun, the moon, the earth, the stars and concluded that everything all had a cycle. In school teachers always use examples to explain a concept to help you understand. It is like when the elders tell children stories to teach them moral lessons. It is like telling you that Adam and Eve ate from the tree of life when you are really saying that they had sex.
I don’t know but sista certainly got me thinking.

KnottyHedGal
03-20-2003, 06:48 PM
You know I realize that life certainly is a journey of learning. I was talking with a friend about religion and she threw this out to me. She said that she believes that Jesus and the 12 disciples simply represent one full cycle (12 months=1 year). Basically she said if you look at many of the old pictures of the Last Supper you always see Jesus in the middle with a halo over him and light illuminating around him. She said this is because he represents the sun. She said that there are usually six disciples on either side of him in groups of three’s and each group of three is having dialogue amongst each other. She said each three represents a season sort of like three months represent a quarter. At the end you have one full year (12 months). If you include Jesus that makes 13. She said that the number 13 represents an Elevation because it is the completion of one full cycle and the beginning of another one. She said that this is why the Jews always have their Bharmitzpha when the child is age 13. She said that when the Europeans took this symbolism from the African beliefs they made it literal making these people real when in fact the Africans used these type of symbolisms to increase their comprehension of the cycles of life. So when the ancestors talked about the story of Horace and Isis and how Horace was chopped up into 13 pieces and spread all over the world it was not because anyone name Horace or Isis actually existed again it is used to understand the cycle’s in life. She said that the ancestors spent many generations looking at the universe the sun, the moon, the earth, the stars and concluded that everything all had a cycle. In school teachers always use examples to explain a concept to help you understand. It is like when the elders tell children stories to teach them moral lessons. It is like telling you that Adam and Eve ate from the tree of life when you are really saying that they had sex.
I don’t know but sista certainly got me thinking.

that makes a lot more sense to me than what most people seem to think. i dont think christianity was necessarily invented to enslave black people, but it has been used for that purpose. has anyone read "things fall apart" by chinua achebe? in this novel(realistic fiction) white people come in to take over their land(in nigeria i believe), and use christianity to make the people docile. okonkwo is extremely angry when he finds that his son is studying the "white man's" religion. i dont think this is necessarily the "slavemaster's" religion, i think it has been used to control people in africa even before the slave trade.

nappturallymeRG
03-22-2003, 04:05 AM
I relinquished Christianity (actually all formal religions) because of its' sujugation of women, not its' use as a tool in slavery. Slavery is not an Article of Faith in most religions. Subjugation of women is.

I agree. I am finding it very hard to be a whole- hearted christian because of this very reason...
"Wives be submissive to your husbands," and the other quote, "slaves be submissive to your masters."
I have a HUGE PROBLEM with those passages. Whatchu think?

Zenith1920
01-17-2012, 12:51 PM
According to Islamism and the MSTofA... "We are returning the Church and Christianity back to the European Nations, as it was prepared by their forefathers for their earthly salvation." HK of the MSTofA. ...also that we are not to stray after the Gods of Europe of whom we know nothing about. I could go on and on with comparisons on how a lot of the things they have 'blamed' on being Godly were for control and stemmed from Hate. The slave trade was full of examples.

..Peace&Love..

lillocks
01-21-2012, 12:27 AM
I agree. I am finding it very hard to be a whole- hearted christian because of this very reason...
"Wives be submissive to your husbands," and the other quote, "slaves be submissive to your masters."
I have a HUGE PROBLEM with those passages. Whatchu think?

Just food for thought.... It also says " husbands love your wives just as Christ also loves the church". I am far from being a bible expert but have wrestled with this same issue. And as usual I find that the guiding principal is ok, it's just that people bend and twist it out of shape. My point is this- the relationship is one of balance but people tend to only focus on the female half of the picture and not on the male's part. While discussing this one day an older sister in my church asked me if I would have a problem with giving deference to a man that I knew without a doubt had my best interests at heart. To my surprise I realized the answer was no. So she suggested I save that deference until I find that man.

I don't wanna ramble on about the point but hopefully shed light on another perspective.

mrscooks
02-01-2012, 05:16 AM
As far as the original question goes...yes, i think christianity was introduced to the slaves by their masters.

Deut 28:36 YaHuWaH shall bring thee, and thy king which thou shalt set over thee, unto a nation which neither thou nor thy fathers have known; and there shalt thou serve other gods, wood and stone.

"and there shalt thou serve other gods, wood and stone....in a nation which neither thou nor thy fathers have known." The bible is not just a spiritual book, it is a history book.

I am not a christian nor religious. I believe in the rightly divided Scriptures. I am a follower of the Way. John 14:6 Yahuwshuwa saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Savvyone
02-01-2012, 01:52 PM
Many "religions" have been used to oppress folk, I don't see why Christianity always has to be the one that's called out but whatevs.....:-o

Jim Jones - whateva his religion was
Suicide bombers who practice Islam
Catholic priests who use thier power and position to sexually prey on young folk

To me Christianity is the fullest version of my definition of "freedom" which is why I walk in it and practice it, not oppressive at all.;)

Vavoon
02-01-2012, 02:38 PM
^^ I think christianity has been pointed out because its the religion that have been "forced down" the throats of slaves during that time. but I also think its accurate to say that people's interpretations of religion is what can make it oppressive, rather than the actual religions itself. People pick and choose what part of the religious text they like, then use that as a weapon, similar to the views on homosexuality. But all religions, have been guilty of doing this (major religions). Even though it was used to oppressed our ancestors, the church became the institution of black unity from then on; changing a negative to a positive!

Denny
02-01-2012, 06:16 PM
I agree. I am finding it very hard to be a whole- hearted christian because of this very reason...
"Wives be submissive to your husbands," and the other quote, "slaves be submissive to your masters."
I have a HUGE PROBLEM with those passages. Whatchu think?

When you understand the cultural context the prinicples behind it makes sense, basically be a good slave and be a good wife. The Roman slave system was not the same as the Transatlantic slave trade. BTW the next verse says men should be good husbands by loving the wife etc, Paul lived in a very patriarchal culture where women were considered the property of their families, first the father then the husband. Its hard to view things through 21st century eyes, it was not the 21st century.

Padme32
02-01-2012, 11:28 PM
We're going to have to go back further than american slavery. Christianity was without question tied to imperialism and colonialism, etc. And so was Islam, as that religion was not native to Africans. Although these historical facts are not a reason to throw either religion to the wind. But it's good to be aware of history.

Padme32
02-01-2012, 11:30 PM
We'll have to go back further than american slavery. Christianity is without question tied to imperialism and colonialism. And so is Islam, as that religion is not native to Africa either. But these are not reasons to thrown either religion to the wind. But it's good to know the history.

chachadiva
02-02-2012, 12:59 AM
We'll have to go back further than american slavery. Christianity is without question tied to imperialism and colonialism. And so is Islam, as that religion is not native to Africa either.

Actually, it's not. There's nothing in the faith that speaks to imperialism or colonialism. There is no denying that people who were Christians were involved in to those. However, their errors and methods must be separated from the faith.

Since a large number of Black people are involved in illegal activity, that's like saying crime is a Black issue.

Going back to the OP, is Buddhism the Asian man's religion? Is a bunch of other spiritual paths and philosophies' the white man's spirituality?

Vavoon
02-02-2012, 01:59 AM
i remember a black studies professor commenting that there are people of african descent in the bible, how the bible existed before european times (something like this, not the exact words) and everything was remade to be more "european." how true is this claim?

ETA: i found it in an old thread in the section. Christianity Before the Slave Trade (http://www.nappturality.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71669). bingo! i'll be reading that now.

The secret monk's of Ethiopia (Askum) Kebra Nagast (http://www.blackchat.co.uk/theblackforum/forum26/22685.html)

ETA (once again): this post for that thread may sum up your question OP: "....But what strikes me first on the subject is that the original man is believed to come from Africa. So it stands to reason that the first to worship God was an African before Christianity existed. By the time of Jesus, there were many people of different races who left worshipping the same God and formed their own religions. The Jewish nation was the last people who followed the commandments of God. (There were other people but as a race the Jews had not changed their beliefs)
When Jesus came into the world to save us from sin he was not accepted by most of the Jews. So Paul and the others took His message to the Gentiles. an Ethiopian man was baptised in the Bible, and there are other examples of people who were not Jews who accepted the truth, so African christianity predates a lot of the missionary work done in the 19th/ 20th centuries by the Catholic church.
I agree that there were Africans who were christians before slavery in America. I also think that a lot of the time some people use the fact that slaves converted to christianity as a way to devalue it. True, there are some who don't know why they believe what they believe and just go along with whatever they were brought up doing. But christianity is not "the white man's religion". True christianity is actually totally different from what so-called christians of old and of today practice. A true christian knows why they believe in Jesus and it aint because "massa say so". I may not follow the religion of my ancestors, but IMO that is not what matters. I value the struggles my people had to endure to overcome obstacles, and i love I come from a strong, proud and wise people...."

mrscooks
02-02-2012, 03:17 AM
i remember a black studies professor commenting that there are people of african descent in the bible, how the bible existed before european times (something like this, not the exact words) and everything was remade to be more "european." how true is this claim?

That professor is right. Deut 28 is about black people. What other race of people fit those prophecies? I am a descendant of the ancient Hebrews. Our Savior Yahuwshuwa, a black man, came from the Hebrew tribe of Yahuwdah (Judah). He is not of european descent and his name is not of Latin origin (jesus). Our Creator would not name his only begotten son after an unclean animal (Sus is Latin for pig).

Yes, if the Scriptures are not rightly divided, you would never know that they were changed, which should have never happened.

swingbolder
02-02-2012, 01:41 PM
Actually, it's not. There's nothing in the faith that speaks to imperialism or colonialism. There is no denying that people who were Christians were involved in to those. However, their errors and methods must be separated from the faith.

If the Europeans had just decided to be slave traders/masters without using their religion to justify it, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

But they DID use the Bible to help them enslave African peoples; this unfortunately intertwines Christian theology with the reality of the transatlantic slave trade as it was implemented over centuries. Let's not also forget that Christianity was born in a time and place (ancient Roman Empire) where slavery was an accepted and engrained part of the social and economic system. Hence those passages in the NT addressing its existence and telling slaves to obey their masters.

This does nothing however to take away from the message of love and compassion that Jesus Christ preached. But let's not ignore historical facts. That would be like those Southern school districts who are currently trying to whitewash slavery out of their textbooks.

tjolims
02-02-2012, 02:31 PM
^^I agree with what swingbolder is saying here. Christianity doesn't exist in a vacuum...the faith is lived out contextually even if it is in principle universal. I don't think Christianity can be at all extricated from the history of Christians if we expect to be at all relevant as believers in Christ today. It's important to recognize how easily other used scripture and deceived belief to justify their sins in the past in order to avoid doing the same today.

Denny
02-07-2012, 02:16 PM
^ So true. When Christianity was in Africa, Europeans were still considered barbarians. Its a long told myth that the white man brought Christiantiy to Africa. IMO once Christianity lost its Judeo cultural roots and the Europeans 'took over' the corruption set in.

Padme32
02-07-2012, 05:21 PM
^ So true. When Christianity was in Africa, Europeans were still considered barbarians. Its a long told myth that the white man brought Christiantiy to Africa. IMO once Christianity lost its Judeo cultural roots and the Europeans 'took over' the corruption set in.

But both Christianity and Islam are still imported religions to Africa, regardless of whether it was brought from a supposedly benign missionary/evangelist or a conquering group (and in many instances they were one in the same).

diya
02-07-2012, 06:02 PM
There's a difference between twisting an established faith to suit one's socio-political and economic gains and having an established doctrine that allows one to do so. I left Christianity for several reasons and though the subjugation of persons of African descent was not an explicit primary reason of mine, this notion definitely permeates all of my other reasons.
1. Christianity plagiarizes many other ancient faiths and I find that to be problematic when these other belief systems are the very ones that are condemned by Christianity.
2. I seek total truth and I don't find that in Christianity for several reasons.
3. The oppression of women and subjugation of the flesh bothers me. I believe that we are mind, body, and spirit for a reason. Consequently, I do not believe that the flesh is simply weak and prone to evil. I believe that desire is a crucial part of our overall development as holistic beings.
4. The dominion of the Earth and animals slightly rubs me the wrong way. However, I am not decided on this subject matter yet. I believe that this notion has resulted in the rape of our dear Mother Earth. Yet, I am still open to the notion that these scriptures can be interpreted in another 'more holistic' manner.
5. I firmly believe that (Yeshua) Jesus probably wouldn't approve of Christianity. He preached a radical spirituality that questioned the motives of the established traditional religious institutions. As a follower of Yeshua, I aim to do the same.
6. "Religion is the opium of the people."- Marx
These are real true words to me. So, I prefer not to ascribe to any particular doctrine despite the fact that I can see the few benefits that they could possibly hold.
7. The subjugation of people is a part of the doctrine and that bothers me. I always go back to the mere fact that the Hebrews were permitted to go into foreign land, wage war, and claim it as their own in the name of Yahweh. I find this to be wrong.

So, that's my two cents.

tjolims
02-07-2012, 11:05 PM
6. "Religion is the opium of the people."- Marx
These are real true words to me. So, I prefer not to ascribe to any particular doctrine despite the fact that I can see the few benefits that they could possibly hold.


Opiate.:)

To Padme's point...I don't think you can lay all of the corruption of Christianity at Europe's feet or on it's "importation" worldwide. Even in the old-school Tewahedo church--the church in Ethiopia that existed in force long before much of Europe had ever *heard* of Christianity...had corruption issues. They just don't seem like corruption to us because we're not Ethiopians in 564 AD.:)

Ultimately, Christianity is practiced by people. People screw up. You can't hold God responsible for people's screwups, and you can't define a person's religion by their screwups--but you CAN be discerning as an individual and develop a mental/spiritual lens that separates out what actually is God and what is only said to be.

au napptural
05-16-2012, 04:54 AM
There's a difference between twisting an established faith to suit one's socio-political and economic gains and having an established doctrine that allows one to do so. I left Christianity for several reasons and though the subjugation of persons of African descent was not an explicit primary reason of mine, this notion definitely permeates all of my other reasons.
1. Christianity plagiarizes many other ancient faiths and I find that to be problematic when these other belief systems are the very ones that are condemned by Christianity.
2. I seek total truth and I don't find that in Christianity for several reasons.
3. The oppression of women and subjugation of the flesh bothers me. I believe that we are mind, body, and spirit for a reason. Consequently, I do not believe that the flesh is simply weak and prone to evil. I believe that desire is a crucial part of our overall development as holistic beings.
4. The dominion of the Earth and animals slightly rubs me the wrong way. However, I am not decided on this subject matter yet. I believe that this notion has resulted in the rape of our dear Mother Earth. Yet, I am still open to the notion that these scriptures can be interpreted in another 'more holistic' manner.
5. I firmly believe that (Yeshua) Jesus probably wouldn't approve of Christianity. He preached a radical spirituality that questioned the motives of the established traditional religious institutions. As a follower of Yeshua, I aim to do the same.
6. "Religion is the opium of the people."- Marx
These are real true words to me. So, I prefer not to ascribe to any particular doctrine despite the fact that I can see the few benefits that they could possibly hold.
7. The subjugation of people is a part of the doctrine and that bothers me. I always go back to the mere fact that the Hebrews were permitted to go into foreign land, wage war, and claim it as their own in the name of Yahweh. I find this to be wrong.

So, that's my two cents.

Woo, preach it! I don't think Christianity was so much corrupted as no good to start with. Yes, the original African practitioners were better than there later European counterparts, but that doesn't mean the doctrine is right. The Bible itself has a hierarchy which calls for the submission of women which I cannot and will not believe in. I also don't believe any pastor, priest, w/e has been enabled to hear from god more than I.

There is too much submission and blind following and not enough personal enlightenment. And on a practical note, no I don't think the follower who committed atrocities in the name of Christianity should be discounted. Firstly, it was not an individual enterprise. The Catholic Church as a whole and the main branches of the Protestant church sanction and enabled slavery. The slave ships were blessed with holy water and some slaveholder sainted. This is the same church that brought imperialism to "eradicate heathenism" and only perpetuated genocide.

If the Christian God was the real deal the true faith wouldn't have been allowed to exist in such a bastardized manner. Not to mention the Holy Book couldn't be edited at will, as it has for thousands of years. You are saying this King James or NIV translation is the real thing, when it is missing books the Catholic Church took out, monarchs like King Henry VIII added their two cents, and it has gone through hundreds of translations which didn't even start with the original copies (and in many cases the books we have were forged by people who claimed to be disciples but lived hundreds of years after Jesus). Uh no.

underthehood
05-19-2012, 07:02 AM
Interesting conversation, I am not a scholar of any sort and I pray that my lack of knowledge does not lead me into saying anything incorrect. Some of you have already very eloquently made some points and had me nodding my head. This post will be long enough so I will reply to the ideas that struck me the most, although I find that many points made deserve their own dialogue.

When I read the topic the first thing that came to mind was a scene from the 1977 film The Message. The scene is can be seen here (http://youtu.be/hf0EV7LbmKs) from times 48:49 to 58:35. I hope you take the 10 minutes to watch it. May the Almighty strengthen today's nations that they may govern with the justice of King Najashe of Abyssinia and return the subjegated nations of the world to their former glory. Ameen.

As well, I have to echo tjolims: "I would venture to say that those of you who deny Christianity because it is "the slavemasters religion" are looking at it from far too narrow-minded a point of view. Perhaps the religious aspects of Christianity have been twisted to subjugate women, black people, etc. BUT the philosophical and spiritual principles behind Christianity in it's purest form are far higher than that, therefore they have no bearing on or effect from purely physical things like race and gender. Are you denying Christianity based on what it is, or on what others have told you it is?"

I would extended the same to Islam, and argue that the philisophical and the spiritual are also aspects of religion. Religion is not limited to law. Nor is it the sum of the actions of those who claim to follow it.

I have to draw on Denny's point on cultural context: what is termed 'slavery' across time and space are not equal.

I also wanted to echo lovinblackness's criticsm of Papillion's use of a proselytization website to associate Islam with African slavery.

I am not a student of Islamic or African history so I cannot comment on a lot of what is being discussed but I did want to share this hadith (saying of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)) as it relates to one of the Prophet's esteemed companions, a former Black slave by the name of Bilal:

Abu Dharr, the leader of the tribe of Ghifar, and one who accepted Islam in its early days, narrates:
Once I was conversing with Bilal. Our conversation gave way to a dispute. Angry with him, the following insult burst from my mouth: 'You cannot comprehend this, O son of a black woman!'
As Islam expressly forbade all kinds of racial, tribal and colour discrimination, Bilal was both upset and greatly angered.
A while later a man came and told me that the Messenger of God, upon him be peace and blessings, summoned me. I went to him immediately. He said to me:

'I have been informed that you addressed Bilal as the son of a black woman.'

I was deeply ashamed and could say nothing. God's Messenger continued his reprimand:

'This means you still retain the standards and judgements of the pre-Islamic days of ignorance. Islam has eradicated all those false standards or measures judging people by blood, fame, colour or wealth. It has established that the best and most honourable of men is he who is the most pious and upright in conduct. Is it right to defame a believer just because he is black?'

Abu Dharr felt profound remorse. He went straight to Bilal's house and, putting his head on the threshold, said: 'This head will not rise from here until the blessed feet of Bilal tread on the face of foolish, impolite Abu Dharr.'
Bilal responded: 'That face deserves to be kissed, not trodden upon', and forgave Abu Dharr.

If you're interested in Bilal's story take a look at the same youtube link I have above (http://youtu.be/hf0EV7LbmKs) and watch from 28:34 to 32:30 (Warning: 30:30 to 31:39 is a torture scene). 'Umar, the second Caliph, said of him: 'Bilal is our master and our master (refering to Abu Bakr) emancipated him.'

Peace,
uth

Babylon
05-20-2012, 08:17 AM
My little input is that the way chrisitianity (and the bible) was taught to us makes it the "slave masters" religion.