Black Marriage

[Blacknemesis]

Hello all, this is my first post on Nappturality, so please be kind. Now to the point:

There was an article posted some time ago about the state of black unions in America. It was shocking to see that 70% of children born to black mothers, were born to un-wed black mothers. I will do my own investigation into those numbers, but even still it is shocking to see that. One of the topics, that was not mentioned, however, was how a black marriage can work.

A lot of people have probably spoken on this topic before, and I may just be adding fuel to the fire, and I apologize. As a black male, I am interested in understanding what it is that a woman would require to stay in a marriage. Maybe there are some woman out there who have questions for the men on this board regarding this topic.

As of now I can only speak for myself. In a union I feel that honesty and understanding are the two things that can make things last. A lot of times people feel insecure in a relationship and this bubbles over into distrust, anxiety, and other problems. These feelings can strangle a relationship even if it has a solid foundation. If both partners learn to speak to each other candidly from the beginning of the relationship, then a comfortability can be formed which allows partners to disclose their innermost feelings. (I am not a psychologist, only speaking from my own experiences).

The second part I mentioned was understanding. Understanding means acceptance. If you like a person that likes to gamble, then you should seriously think about whether or not you want to be with a person who gambles. If he/she has a problem that makes you feel uncomfortable, then you should really take time to TALK to the person about it. If you feel that the problem is something that is dangerous to the person or yourself, and they are unwilling to change then staying with that person is a decision you have to make. One should never hope for change, because change can only come if you can control the situation. If the person is willing to change then you have to ask yourself if you are willing to help that person. Change takes time and patience, change is not an overnight thing. If you know that you do not have what is needed to stay with that person, then a decision should be made.

These are issues that I think couples should discuss before they go furthur into a relationship, cause once you cross the "love" threshold, it only gets harder. I said my peace, so what is your opinion?


Blacknemesis
"Piece and Peaces"

(sorry for the grammar and spelling mistakes)

[afroluvangel]

Interesting topic, Black nemesis and welcome. I believe that the future of black marriage is dire. I say this because black men and women are both blaming each other for the problems in their marriage instead of working out differences and coming to common ground. I watched the Al Sharpton show that comes on TV One Sunday, and the topic was similar to this. One of the guest speakers, a black female radio personality, stated that we all need therapy. And, I agree...

As african americans, we do have deep-seated issues that we need to deal with. It's all based on how we see ourselves in our family, our society, in the eyes of God, etc. Until we are healed individually, we will always have hurting people getting into relationships in order to find themselves.

I do have some questions for you. Why do alot of black men have the same view that when something goes wrong in the relationship, it's the woman's fault? On that same Al Sharpton show, another guest speaker was a black male who has his own talk show on ESPN (Quite Frankly). He stated that black women don't want a "good man" and if they do, then they have a list of "demands" for him to follow the next week. He was very hot-headed and the female guest speaker couldn't get a word in. I find that black men, like this guy, become more threatening towards black women of saying they will leave if black women don't show any "accountability".

What is it that black men want?

What is your view of women on this website?

[wannabenappy]

The state of black marriage is truly perplexing to me.....

I remember being freaked out by reading this in Ebony...


Ebony, Nov, 2003 by Joy Bennett Kinnon

An even more alarming statistic is the increase in the number

of both Black men and women who have never been married.

Nearly 45 percent of Black men have never married and 42

percent of Black women have never married. More to the point,

an increasing number of Black women will never get married.

The percentage of Black women who are married declined from

62 percent to 31 percent between 1950 and 2002.

Not only are African-Americans marrying at a lower rate, they

are also marrying at a later age. The Joint Center for

Political and Economic Studies reports that by the age of 30,

81 percent of White women and 77 percent of Hispanics and

Asians will marry, but that only 52 percent of Black women

will marry by that age. Black women are also the least likely

to re-marry following divorce. Only 32 percent of Black women

will get married again within five years of divorce; that

figure is 58 percent for White women and 44 percent for Hispanic women.[/b]


Although I'm 25 and no where near or ready to be married, reading statistics like these that basically say "You're a black female and the older you get the less likely you are to be married" kinda stings when you want to have a family someday.

Why are black people not marrying? Who knows! Do black men and women just have no desire to be married? Do we just settle for temporary, unstable, or cohabiting relationships? Is jumping the broom just too much of a commitment for black men, black women or both? I'm sure there are plenty of social, cultural and economic reasons arguments that could explain the state of black marriage. As for me, the best thing I can do at this point is continue to live my life and not get bogged down with statistics. I had to learn to put down any copy of Ebony or Essence with the words "Black Marriage" on it.

Brothas, if you're out there, chime in!

[Blacknemesis]

To afroluvangel - I cannot speak for "good" black men because I don't think I have the right to say who is good and who isn't.

I have a couple of friends, including me, who find it hard to find "good" black women. So both sides are missing each other. People want what they want. Sometimes they want something that they would be better off not having. "Ghetto Love" is all the rage these days, especially in books. What other stable relationship do black people have to look up to? Maybe relationships are hard because we don't know what a relationship is. A relationship is not Me, Myself, and I; and I have encountered women who are like that. A lot of men have. There are a lot of men who are like that also.

I don't think going to a shrink will help. People are people, and people will always have problems. How they deal with those problems is key to how they deal with a relationship. If a man tries to carry everything on his shoulders, then he more than likely will not tell his partner everything. That is something that can break up a relationship.

If people are more willing to accept each other and work together then maybe we can get more black on black love instead of black on black thug.

To wannabenappy - Here is a good question for you, and this will answer what your questions..... when was the last time you saw two black people sit down and discuss their differences without resorting to violence? I know it happens, but how often do you think it happens in our community as opposed to others?

There are a lot of problems, and until we talk about the issues AND ACT ON THEM there can be no solution to the problem.

Speak on

Peace and Pieces

[afroluvangel]

Black Nemesis, I just want to know what you think a "good" black woman is?

My definition of a "good" black man is"

-God-fearing, Christian
-cares for his children
-cares for me
-has good connection w/his family
-not abusive (verbal or physical)
-doesn't cheat
-respects my family
-believes that marriage is 100/100 percent and not 50/50 percent
-no drug/alcohol issues
-doesn't have any chauvinistic/mysoginistic views

Alot of these can be worked out in a relationship. Others are hard for men to break.

Therapy is not going to a shrink. Therapy is the effort taken by an individual to make a positive change in his/her life. All of us are responsible for our own change.

[LilShortRib]

I think the problem is that many people don't understand the basic fundamental principles of a marriage. Society in the United States has basically made marriage a mockery and we've gotten so far away from what it should be.

In African-American communities, it's now accepted and in many times encouraged for women to bring children into this world when they are unwed. Some women do this by choice, some women do this because they made poor decisions, some just don't know any better. Many females have the wrong idea on what they need to do to 'keep a man', and unfortunatley that idea has a lot to do with sex on demand. Men are encouraged to take advantage of and 'pimp' and bed as many women as possible. When you come from this type of society, how can you expect a marriage to work?

Most people I know, especially the Black people I know came up in a single-parent household. People in our communities no longer have a model of a stable marriage or how to be a husband or wife. Many people who do decide to get married don't make it very long. So if folks want to get married, they have no idea what to do because nobody told them or showed them (or did a good job of it). Many don't want to get married because they don't see any positive results from it.

In addition, we live in a society that is so focused on me me me and instant gratification, (and marriage is totally not designed for this type of thought). As soon as someone doesn't like what's going on - they leave instead of sticking it out. People don't understand that anything that's going to last requires maintainence and hard work. If people can't understand these basic princples, they won't stay married long (hence the high divorce rate).

As a Christian woman, I must say that the only way a marriage can work in my opinion is if both parties want to please God first and will take the time for Him to mold them into someone ready for that union and they must wait for Him to send them the appropriate person. Once that happens, both parties must still continue to stand firm on Biblical and Godly principles of marriage, or it won't work.

Marriage is no cake walk, it's not easy, and it's not for someone who only thinks of themselves and always wants life to be comfortable, instant and happy. Until people get themselves together first (mentally, spiritually, financially) they can never join themselves to another and expect it to work.

[candy kisses]

I think the problem is a lot of Black people obviously don't want to get married. They have a backwards mentality. Some of them don't even strive for marriage. They have numerous kids out of wedlock, think it's totally acceptable, and then wonder why it's so hard for them to find a mate. Simple as that.

[emerald06]

I have noticed a trend. Many black women I know IRL say they don't want to get married until they're closer to 30. Most white women I know consider themselves an old maid if they aren't married by 26 and they kick the search up into overdrive.

I think delaying marriage discourages it in some ways. Some women, myself included, think, "I need to get ALL my stuff together BEFORE I get married." But why can't you include marriage in that picture? You can finish graduate school if you're married. You can even buy a house TOGETHER!

I have one last point on the issue of home ownership. I've known couples who have waited until they were in their late 30s to buy their first home. Nothing wrong with that, per se, but who wants to worry about a mortgage when they should be retiring? This is one thing that has disturbed me greatly. I think we underestimate the power of marriage in our community as a method of generating wealth.

[LilShortRib]

I think the problem is a lot of Black people obviously don't want to get married. They have a backwards mentality. Some of them don't even strive for marriage. They have numerous kids out of wedlock, think it's totally acceptable, and then wonder why it's so hard for them to find a mate. Simple as that.
[/b]

I think those people do want to get married, they just don't think about the fact that their 5 kids from different partners may be a deterrent to a potential mate. I don't think they make the connection that being irresponsible about how you sleep with someone and finding a mate later on can have a lot to do with one another.

For example, I know someone who moved into her boyfriend's mother's house, proceeded to have 2 of his children, got engaged, and then when she decided she didn't like how he was treating her (which never changed throughout the entire relationship, mind you) she left. She then got involved with another guy, had his child, got engaged, and the same thing happened.

When I got engaged, she called me to congratulate me and was so pitiful when she was lamenting about how she's just waiting for her turn. All I could do was just :rolleyes:. I didn't want to be the one to break it to her that a woman in her mid-30s with 3 kids by 2 baby daddies isn't most men's idea of a suitable mate. I have to just pray for her. Not that it couldn't happen, but you know what I mean... ;)

[asmabahiya]

I am a single mother of two boys. I was married for 7 years to my children's father. After 5 years of marriage he decided that he did not want to work anymore and wanted to deal drugs and bring them and dangerous people into our home. Previously, we owned a home made good money and was "happy". We had our share of problems but when a person decides to change or reveal his true self and put his family in a dangerous situation what is a woman to do? I am sometimes ashamed that I am a single mother because no one knows my situation before they judge me. They immediately think "another single mother". I stayed with my ex-husband for 2 years before I decided that our boys deserved better and that our lives did not need to be in danger because he chose that life. I am not a ride or die chick. :unsure: I am not sure if this follows along with what is being talked about but I loved being married. Did I get married too young? Yes! Did I ignore signs that he had other tendencies? Yes! Do I regret my decisions? No! I love my children and to regret my past is to regret them. Do I dislike our situation? Yes! Have I given up on marriage? No!.. I am looking forward to it again and to do it "the right way".

[jen_exquisite]

I have noticed a trend. Many black women I know IRL say they don't want to get married until they're closer to 30. Most white women I know consider themselves an old maid if they aren't married by 26 and they kick the search up into overdrive.

I think delaying marriage discourages it in some ways. Some women, myself included, think, "I need to get ALL my stuff together BEFORE I get married." But why can't you include marriage in that picture? You can finish graduate school if you're married. You can even buy a house TOGETHER!

I have one last point on the issue of home ownership. I've known couples who have waited until they were in their late 30s to buy their first home. Nothing wrong with that, per se, but who wants to worry about a mortgage when they should be retiring? This is one thing that has disturbed me greatly. I think we underestimate the power of marriage in our community as a method of generating wealth.
[/b]


I know so many women like this. A friend of mine has a great guy who she has been with for about 8 years. He wants to get married, but she doesn't because she wants to get her life together first, whatever that means, she is one of the most "together" people that I know. what makes this situation bad is that I can see him getting frustrated and agitated. They really should get married

[lyndaslocs]

Marriage is hard work. It takes two people from different backgrounds with different priorities and puts them together (hopefully) for a lifetime. Most of us (me too) are self-centered. Once you get past the honeymoon and the reality of paying bills and balancing schedules sets in, it takes real determination to keep it together. I have been married over fifteen years and I know there were times when I wanted to throw in the towel. People need to realize that everyday with your spouse it not going to be paradise. At some point, we also have to realize that we have our own shortcomings and should take 50% of the blame when any problem arises. Examples of differences between my spouse and I are that I'm a Christian, but he's not actively practicing, we have totally different approaches to handling money, and we have different temperments. Yet, he's a good person from a loving family and is responsible and committed to our marriage. I have to admit that I haven't always been easy to live with. I encourage people to stay together whenever possible, as long as it's a safe environment for each person (no abuse, drugs, infidelity) because once you leave you have to start all over again and you'll probably perpetuate the problem with the next person you hook up with.

[vicchnu]

I think the problem is a lot of Black people obviously don't want to get married. They have a backwards mentality. Some of them don't even strive for marriage. They have numerous kids out of wedlock, think it's totally acceptable, and then wonder why it's so hard for them to find a mate. Simple as that.
[/b]

Well, i have been married and i'm not interested in getting married again. If it backwards to know that i can be a whole person without lamenting about marriage, then i'll happliy stay that way. I thnk the problem is not being married, but in having children without support of the other partner-- physically and financially. I know lots of divorce women who have had their children in the marraighe who are in that boat right now.

I can't predict what the future may be, so i may change my mind about marrying -- i'm not oppose to it. I just think that this constant yearning for the "marriage" is misguided and lead many women to accept behavoir from men they would not otherwise if they realize that they are ok by themselves.

By the way, i and other divorce moms i know with kids have not been having problems attracting decent men. Men always say one thing but when they see something they like and that woman fit their ideal in personality and values welcome what that woman brings -- that includes children.

[lyndaslocs]

Marriages between Black people are difficult because we are dragging a lot of baggage from the past. Enslaved people were often not allowed to marry and any unions that occurred were subject to spouses being sold away of the enslaver forcing himself of the wife. In America, we are about one-hundred-fifty years out of slavery, but some of us are still caught up in the effects of the past.

[wanting]

As others have stated, marriage is hard work and it takes a strong commitment by the people involved to make it work. Myself, like most people in their 20's and 30's, I come from a single-parent home who did not see a firm example of what a marriage should be. Most of the adults were married and cheating or not married at all. The only way for the state of marriage (not just black marriage) in this country to change would be for people to set standards of what they want their marriages to be like. If all you saw in your neighborhood was lying and cheating on your mate, vow that you will not do what they did.

[sonce]

The only way for the state of marriage (not just black marriage) in this country to change would be for people to set standards of what they want their marriages to be like. If all you saw in your neighborhood was lying and cheating on your mate, vow that you will not do what they did.
[/b]
Thank you!

Why is it that people grow up seeing adults act foolish and make mistakes and then go on to be the next neighborhood f--k-up? Why not decide to do better?

Marriage among blacks in America is dismal and declining but that can all change overnight if people will decide to do better. Unfortunately I'm not holding my breath because exhorting people, especially blacks, to do better is construed as "unsympathetic" and of course I can't know what they're going through because I must not have ever suffered :rolleyes: Black creativity is at its best when it comes to dreaming up the most ridiculous excuses for not changing feckless ways and persisting in foolishness. As long as people want a free pass for being useless, black marriage, black parenting, black education...heck black anything will continue to be a disappointment and a joke.

I can't change black marriage among jokers who want to have kids OOW, knowing this diminishes their chances of getting married, nor can I stop women from persisting in stagnant relationships with men who have no intention of getting serious. All I can do is make sure that I am not numbered among the embarrassments and give my sisters good advice. That is what I will do and I'm glad that we're luckier in that like many Africans, we've grown up seeing how marriage can work and understanding why it is valuable. Granted many of the marriages I see between Africans can't be called happy but at least they have the togetherness, kids in wedlock, and longevity part right. I hope to add marital happiness and fidelity to that equation and make something even better than my parents' generation had.

[Blacknemesis]

Good points all around.

I must say that a lot of what has been said are things that I have never thought of before. I am a product of a single mother household, but I feel that that experience has STRENGTHENED my desire to be with someone.

I believe in learning from out past mistakes. Not just our mistakes but also the mistakes of others. My father has 7 children, with four different women. I grew up with the pain of not having a father figure around. I grew up watching my mother struggle to support my brother and I. These are things that I will not repeat, and do not want to be repeated.

In the AA community this behavior happens often, but is never corrected. People are afraid to call other people out. If your friend has two wives and three different babie's mamas you need to call that person out on that. If you know that they are thinking of starting a basketball team, you need to call them out on it. I may lose friends because of how I feel,or what I say; but you can't compare that to having your father.

We, the AA community, should take more responsibility for our community. a White person isn't telling us who to stick. a White person isn't the one telling us to be pimps. We are doing this to ourselves, and we have to be responsible for ourselves. The blame cannot be passed of just because we dont know what to do.

I dont think that you have to be with the perfect person to get married to them. You should find a person who shares some of the same values as you do. If starting a family is something that you want to do , then it is something that should be planned. Accidents do happen yes, but they can be minimized.

I believe that God has a plan for everyone, but I also believe that we have to be responsible for our actions. I hope to one day get married myself and I believe that my partner should be someone who compliments who I am. I may not get a perfect match, but I will work hard to make it a co-habittable one. Life is not perfect, and it has its ups and downs, so do all relationships. Our true self is shown when we are faced with adversity. I am never one to back down (unless adversity has a gun, then I run).

Peace and Pieces

[ValleyOfDecision]

Good points all around.

I must say that a lot of what has been said are things that I have never thought of before. I am a product of a single mother household, but I feel that that experience has STRENGTHENED my desire to be with someone.

I believe in learning from out past mistakes. Not just our mistakes but also the mistakes of others. My father has 7 children, with four different women. I grew up with the pain of not having a father figure around. I grew up watching my mother struggle to support my brother and I. These are things that I will not repeat, and do not want to be repeated.

In the AA community this behavior happens often, but is never corrected. People are afraid to call other people out. If your friend has two wives and three different babie's mamas you need to call that person out on that. If you know that they are thinking of starting a basketball team, you need to call them out on it. I may lose friends because of how I feel,or what I say; but you can't compare that to having your father.

We, the AA community, should take more responsibility for our community. a White person isn't telling us who to stick. a White person isn't the one telling us to be pimps. We are doing this to ourselves, and we have to be responsible for ourselves. The blame cannot be passed of just because we dont know what to do.

I dont think that you have to be with the perfect person to get married to them. You should find a person who shares some of the same values as you do. If starting a family is something that you want to do , then it is something that should be planned. Accidents do happen yes, but they can be minimized.

I believe that God has a plan for everyone, but I also believe that we have to be responsible for our actions. I hope to one day get married myself and I believe that my partner should be someone who compliments who I am. I may not get a perfect match, but I will work hard to make it a co-habittable one. Life is not perfect, and it has its ups and downs, so do all relationships. Our true self is shown when we are faced with adversity. I am never one to back down (unless adversity has a gun, then I run).

Peace and Pieces
[/b]
Interesting topic.

The part in bold interested me and made me want to play devil's advocate for a second. I understand what's being said. However......

What about those people who have seen out-of-wedlock (OOW) relationships all their lives and don't know any better? You know, kinda like those families some of us know about where there have been OOW relationships for generations. What if that's what they're used to? What if they don't even want to change that?

I say that to say although choice is a factor, I believe there are environmental factors as well. Sometimes those factors can be changed, sometimes they can't. Just my humble opinion.

Just because I'm playing devil's advocate doesn't necessarily mean I don't agree with the general ideas of this topic. ;)

[resurrection]

I didn't realize how special DH and I are to be in the most high 31% of married Black Americans. :rolleyes:

[ValleyOfDecision]

I didn't realize how special DH and I are to be in the most high 31% of married Black Americans. :rolleyes:
[/b]
I'm genuinely curious as to what you mean, so it'd be good if you elaborated a little more.

[Cassandra]

I think the problem is a lot of Black people obviously don't want to get married. They have a backwards mentality. Some of them don't even strive for marriage. They have numerous kids out of wedlock, think it's totally acceptable, and then wonder why it's so hard for them to find a mate. Simple as that.
[/b]


I would even go further to say, that the societies will live in make marriage a joke and it is no longer, the love and passionate, between one man and one woman. Society encourages teenagers to date, dating what, what are people looking for a husband or a date, they 'date' for ten years, have children during the time and there is a lot of foolishness about, someone getting married at twenty being too young, yet there is not too young talk, when the two young people are sleeping together. Another point which is always said, that you have all the time in the world. That is a fundamental lie, we don't have a lot of time. If women started looking for husband material since they were 19 and look at men, their qualities, have a lot of male friends, educate themselves, have their own financies, but we are encouraged in the me me me society.

[NappilyEvahAftah]

[I would even go further to say, that the societies will live in make marriage a joke and it is no longer, the love and passionate, between one man and one woman. Society encourages teenagers to date, dating what, what are people looking for a husband or a date, they 'date' for ten years, have children during the time and there is a lot of foolishness about, someone getting married at twenty being too young, yet there is not too young talk, when the two young people are sleeping together. Another point which is always said, that you have all the time in the world. That is a fundamental lie, we don't have a lot of time. If women started looking for husband material since they were 19 and look at men, their qualities, have a lot of male friends, educate themselves, have their own financies, but we are encouraged in the me me me society.
[/b]

:smil3f72836ee752e:

Amen!

[FoxxyLocs]

i agree with most of the points that have been made already. i'm 22 and have been with my bf for almost 2 years. we do plan on getting married and i don't feel like i need to wait until i get my degree and have my career, etc. maybe those things should come before children, but i don't see why getting married would keep you from achieving your goals.

also, i hate to hear women talk about how they don't need a man, they can do it on their own, etc. yes, it's great to be able to take care of yourself, and nobody needs a trifling no-good man who sits at home all day and waits for you to come home and cook for him. i definitely don't need that. however, i do need a good man. i need a man to be my partner in life, to be a father to my children, to be supportive of me, to nurture and love me. i think that having the mentality that we don't need a man at all in our lives is detrimental to our relationships because it makes us run at the first sign of unhappiness or the first little argument, then we wonder why we end up being single for so long. in no way am i advocating staying in a relationship that is unhealthy or one that you know is not right for you. that's dumb. i just think our mentality should be "i won't settle for the wrong man" rather than "i don't need a man", unless of course you just don't like men.

[Mae]

i agree with most of the points that have been made already. i'm 22 and have been with my bf for almost 2 years. we do plan on getting married and i don't feel like i need to wait until i get my degree and have my career, etc. maybe those things should come before children, but i don't see why getting married would keep you from achieving your goals.

also, i hate to hear women talk about how they don't need a man, they can do it on their own, etc. yes, it's great to be able to take care of yourself, and nobody needs a trifling no-good man who sits at home all day and waits for you to come home and cook for him. i definitely don't need that. however, i do need a good man. i need a man to be my partner in life, to be a father to my children, to be supportive of me, to nurture and love me. i think that having the mentality that we don't need a man at all in our lives is detrimental to our relationships because it makes us run at the first sign of unhappiness or the first little argument, then we wonder why we end up being single for so long. in no way am i advocating staying in a relationship that is unhealthy or one that you know is not right for you. that's dumb. i just think our mentality should be "i won't settle for the wrong man" rather than "i don't need a man", unless of course you just don't like men.
[/b]

Well, I am a 30 year old single mom, and I have to say, honestly, that I don't feel as though I NEED a man, a husband, in order to be successful. It may be optimal to have two parents, to have a partner, but it is not necesary for my family's survivial or success. I spent my young adult years either in relationships that were headed toward marriage or wishing I was in them. I never made it to the altar, and I don't feel desperate to do so now. In fact, at this point in my life, being in a relationship would unnecesarily complicate my life. If my personal choices have contributed to the demise of our community or our society, then hopefully the good works that I and my son do in this world will counteract the "negative effects of being a single parent household.

:smil3f9cf95099cff: It is really interesting how the personal choices that one makes in life become such political matters....there is that saying....."the personal is poltical".....Black women can't have private lives and private choices without it impacting society...I wonder if white women face such scrutiny....or if they given such an obligation or burden....or even Black men....just thinking aloud.....no real position on it......yet..... ;)

[BrittanyanJ]

I dunno, I have always looked at it in the sense that each family is a contributing facet of society so what happens in each household is eventually the concern of the greater community, like that...that includes people of all socioeconomic and racial backgrounds...I think a stable family is most effective as a contributor of good to society, and a stable family, a happy family, can be headed by a single parent, one or two grandparents, aunts, uncles, or even an older brother or sister. However, across the board, stats show two-parent families are most successful in this regard, so if popular opinion and culture were more encouraging of building stable, happy relationships, then for the most part I think some change would follow in the way a lot of people relate to one another.

It seems like most people have the desire for an intimate relationship--people still get married despite the high divorce rate, people still date and get into relationships even though they may have doubts about the institution of marriage. Its just that popular opinion, while maybe well-intended, is not the solution to the relationship difficulties people contend with today. And honestly, it seems odd to me that, say, at 18, you are mature enough to have a say in government (in the States) and to give your life for your country, or to go to prison for life, but not mature enough to choose a life partner? I think young people are capable, its just about having the right mindset and skills. That doesnt include everybody, but that doesnt mean that everybody under, say, 25 is too young, either. And since people who are older can also make the same mistakes, I think there is a lot to be said for that. But I dont guess we were talking about age...I've gone off on a tangent.


*Getting off soapbox and running away**

[FoxxyLocs]

i never said we as women needed men in order to be sucessful, but of course that depends on what your idea of success is. certainly you don't need to have a man in order to earn a degree, get a good job, own a home, be a good parent, etc. i also don't think you should go out of your way to keep a man who's not worth keeping or who doesn't want to be kept. you have to make smart decisions for yourself and of course no man is worth compromising your diginity or self-worth. but a good man is worth compromising for. i guess it's just about what's important to you. if we do want to get married and raise families, we need to let go of the idea that we don't need men and that we should just leave them and find someone better whenever they do something that we don't like.

[abbutterflie]

:smil3f9cf95099cff: It is really interesting how the personal choices that one makes in life become such political matters....there is that saying....."the personal is poltical".....Black women can't have private lives and private choices without it impacting society...I wonder if white women face such scrutiny....or if they given such an obligation or burden....or even Black men....just thinking aloud.....no real position on it......yet..... ;)
[/b]

I don't know about men, but I think that for women in general (ie black, white and every colour in between) the personal is made political. You just have to read the stuff about on the one hand selfish career women not having kids, or feckless teenage single mothers, or how working mothers supposedly harm their kids development etc etc to see how women are blamed for the demise of the family and by extension the demise of society.

[Mae]

<div class='quotemain'>

:smil3f9cf95099cff: It is really interesting how the personal choices that one makes in life become such political matters....there is that saying....."the personal is poltical".....Black women can&#39;t have private lives and private choices without it impacting society...I wonder if white women face such scrutiny....or if they given such an obligation or burden....or even Black men....just thinking aloud.....no real position on it......yet..... ;)
[/b]

I don&#39;t know about men, but I think that for women in general (ie black, white and every colour in between) the personal is made political. You just have to read the stuff about on the one hand selfish career women not having kids, or feckless teenage single mothers, or how working mothers supposedly harm their kids development etc etc to see how women are blamed for the demise of the family and by extension the demise of society.
[/b][/quote]

to add, the feminist movement latched on to that phrase years ago in order to bring into the public social sphere issues that folk at previously said were "private" matters....wife battering being the main issue...kind of a way to force the government and society at large to deal with issues instead of just sweeping them under the rug....I understand the need for that, the other side of it is just what you said....women, our reproductive and parenting choices in particular, get critiqued (for lack of a better word)....and which women get put under th microscope more than any.....Black women, of course.....at least as a black single mom, that&#39;s how I feel....

[YoGirlToo]

the state of black marriage-
well my thoughts
black culture and white culture is different
generally speaking and this does not apply to everyone- the white women i know are more dependent- meaning- they looking for a man to take care of them- some are over supportive- meaning i&#39;ve seen white women in grocery stores with there husband and to me the relationship is like father/ daughter- i mean i&#39;ve seen white women having to ask their husband is ok to buy a box of cereal-and her husband is acting like its the start of world war 3 of a box of cereal and i&#39;m like HUH???

black women on the other hand in general have had to independent, we make less money, we have the media stereotypes, yes i think we want a satisfying relationships but we don&#39;t want to raise a man either

black men have it worse that black women - because on a whole they are looking to white men for employement and white men historically pay black men less than any one.

black men and women have alot of factors working against us- so
what am i doing about it personally
i try my best not to put down black men- even the black man that&#39;s dealing, whatever- i believe in black love and i believe most black people do

i just think their is a cultural difference and if we appreciate our differences we&#39;ll be alright

hope this train of thought makes sense - if not i&#39;m sorry i had a long day at work and i winding down through nappturality

[luxvicioux]

I don&#39;t know about men, but I think that for women in general (ie black, white and every colour in between) the personal is made political. You just have to read the stuff about on the one hand selfish career women not having kids, or feckless teenage single mothers, or how working mothers supposedly harm their kids development etc etc to see how women are blamed for the demise of the family and by extension the demise of society.
[/b]

I agree.


Well, I am a 30 year old single mom, and I have to say, honestly, that I don&#39;t feel as though I NEED a man, a husband, in order to be successful. It may be optimal to have two parents, to have a partner, but it is not necesary for my family&#39;s survivial or success. I spent my young adult years either in relationships that were headed toward marriage or wishing I was in them. I never made it to the altar, and I don&#39;t feel desperate to do so now. In fact, at this point in my life, being in a relationship would unnecesarily complicate my life. If my personal choices have contributed to the demise of our community or our society, then hopefully the good works that I and my son do in this world will counteract the "negative effects of being a single parent household.
[/b]

My mother is 40 (I&#39;m 25), and she falls in line with Mae&#39;s philosophy. She does not desire to marry, she is Christian (I am not), came from a two parent home that was Christian, and is financially stable. I respect her decision, and to be honest thought that I would follow her path in life. Just because you date someone doesn&#39;t mean you have to marry them. There were never any "good old days" in which people were lived life completely righteously.

Maybe black American women are choosing not to get married, not because they are ignorant, young, stupid or don&#39;t have the options But perhaps it is their autonomousness and individuality that does not tie them down to marriage as it might with women in other cultures. I know very few black women personally (even those raised in two parent families) who grow up dreaming of a family or married life. I, myself, wasn&#39;t one of them, but married at 20 years old because I felt I&#39;d found my best friend.

Whenever I watch what is displayed as the typical man-hungry black woman looking for the perfect brother, I recognize that I do not know this person and have never met a person like that in my life. I do know this is probably a reality for some people on the board (as in they have friends or know people like this), but it hasn&#39;t ever been one for me.

If you look at the social structure of what&#39;s happening in America it looks like black women may be the ones with the most agency over their lives regardless of class (on a personal level), with that agency it looks like some of us are deciding to be alone. We should not be painted as victims who are backwards, but as women who have chosen a different path than what may be seen as traditionally American.

[CatSuga]

:smil3f9cf95099cff: It is really interesting how the personal choices that one makes in life become such political matters....there is that saying....."the personal is poltical".....Black women can&#39;t have private lives and private choices without it impacting society...I wonder if white women face such scrutiny....or if they given such an obligation or burden....or even Black men....just thinking aloud.....no real position on it......yet..... ;)
[/b]

You must not live in a neighborhood were 80% of the children are raised by single black women.

[Mae]

<div class='quotemain'>
:smil3f9cf95099cff: It is really interesting how the personal choices that one makes in life become such political matters....there is that saying....."the personal is poltical".....Black women can&#39;t have private lives and private choices without it impacting society...I wonder if white women face such scrutiny....or if they given such an obligation or burden....or even Black men....just thinking aloud.....no real position on it......yet..... ;)
[/b]

You must not live in a neighborhood were 80% of the children are raised by single black women.
[/b][/quote]
I would love to engage in a discussion about how the two relate...but I will need more to go on than one liners......no offense, I just can&#39;t quite get your point.....

[Mae]

Okay I just thought about this....feeding of of the personal realm and the political realm "theory", certain groups put issues in the political realm in order to draw attention to the issue and compel society to respond to it....governmental intervention and whatnot....but our society as it stands today is not going to as a institution do any true interventions to regulate or enforce marrige...so if single mothers are seen as the reason for "Black failure", and the government is not willing to do anything about it, then the government can just say...it is our of our hands.....now if the problem was fair wages or discrimination, or childcare, or healthcare, or education, or anything else...if that was the "true" issue at stake, the government would feel compelled to react....but single mothers...that is "their" problem...."they" are ruining our society, but Americans don&#39;t stone single moms or force marriages so.....oh well.....just a thought that popped in my head about this issue...not really developed yet....lots of holes....

[NappilyEvahAftah]

Well,

It&#39;s okay not to want to marry. But I believe that if you&#39;re going to have children, you should be married. Folks always ask me, "How come you don&#39;t have kids?", and when I tell them "Because I&#39;m not married, and have never been married", they look at me like that&#39;s no reason not to have children. Okay.

Again, I know my views are not popular, but I believe that if God, in His infinite wisdom, decided that it would take TWO people to conceive a child (the easy part), I would think TWO people would be necessary to raise and nurture (the hard part) a child. A mother can never be a father, and vice versa. Children need mothers and fathers (together in the home), ideally — and we should want the ideal, for our children, and not be so willing to settle for what "will work". Now, this is not a judgement on single mothers, cuz a lot of mothers end up single, and it wasn&#39;t their choice (or it was their choice, because of a decision to end a marriage).

We can&#39;t always control how we end up, but we can often control how we start out. Men ARE needed — not for the "survival" or success of women, but for the survival and success of the family. I may not always have a husband, but I can chose to start off with one, and we both can decide to give our all (with God&#39;s help) to stay together and love each other and raise our children.

Yes, many of us were raised by single mothers, and God bless &#39;em all, cuz for those who did their jobs, it was tough. God is able to "make up" for our lack. But I hope we don&#39;t come away thinking that that was/is the BEST way to build families.

[wildandkinky]

While I think that in most cases it is better to be married before getting pregnant, I think pressuring people to get married is wrong.

Not everyone is ready to commit at 20, 25 or 30.
Not everyone wants to have children
Some people need to date for a long time to find out what they want in a partner.
Some people do not ever want to marry.

Would you want to have a marriage arranged for you if you were not married by 27?
Would you want all girls to be put on the shotpill until they were married?
Would you want divorce for couples with children forbidden?
What if your husband started sleeping with men/dealing dope/beating you after you had a child?

[honeybunch2k5]

I would even go further to say, that the societies will live in make marriage a joke and it is no longer, the love and passionate, between one man and one woman. Society encourages teenagers to date, dating what, what are people looking for a husband or a date, they &#39;date&#39; for ten years, have children during the time and there is a lot of foolishness about, someone getting married at twenty being too young, yet there is not too young talk, when the two young people are sleeping together. Another point which is always said, that you have all the time in the world. That is a fundamental lie, we don&#39;t have a lot of time. If women started looking for husband material since they were 19 and look at men, their qualities, have a lot of male friends, educate themselves, have their own financies, but we are encouraged in the me me me society.
[/quote]

ITA

I am 19 and people discourage me from getting too serious and settling down with one guy. Okay, I&#39;m old enough to be tried as an ADULT and sentenced to death just like any other ADULT, and I think I&#39;m old enough to choose a life partner. Saying someone is too young and immature is just giving them an excuse to do foolish things. I think monogamy has just become a joke, seeing as how swingers are becoming more and more popular and getting divorced is much easier process nowadays. Some young people think that settling down is not fun. It doesn&#39;t work out everytime, but if two people have similar goals in can work. You can settle down with someone and learn many wonderful things about them as time passes so one is not necessarily selling themselves short by settling down at a young age. People tell me that I need to finish college, get a car, and get my own salary and place before I get married. I can do all those things while being married, being married is not the end of my life and freedom. I have seen on TV where women reject men who love them dearly so they can go "find themselves." In other words they want to sleep around. Then one day they will realize the grass was not greener on the other side and may wish they had settled down with the guy who wanted to treat her like a queen. But this is not to say a woman can&#39;t make it own her own.

As for black marriages in particular, it can be difficult. One theory as to why Black and Hispanics also have lower marriage rates is that some live in areas that are impoverished and has much violent crime, and this affects marriage rates.

[wannabenappy]

To wannabenappy - Here is a good question for you, and this will answer what your questions..... when was the last time you saw two black people sit down and discuss their differences without resorting to violence? I know it happens, but how often do you think it happens in our community as opposed to others?

There are a lot of problems, and until we talk about the issues AND ACT ON THEM there can be no solution to the problem.

Speak on

Peace and Pieces
[/b]

Sorry for the late response...I haven&#39;t returned to the culture board in a hot minute...

but you&#39;re right. We don&#39;t talk about our problems with each other. I think as a community we&#39;re not exactly big on that either...hence our problems.

I think it&#39;s easy to say "If we all just sit down and talk it would fix things." But are we too far past the stage of talking? Are we too far gone? I mean look at the state of marriage period - forget race! Half of all marriages in this country are calling it quits. Have black people settled for companionships instead of commitments?

Maybe it&#39;s because so many of us came from split families that we don&#39;t know what a marriage looks like - so if we don&#39;t know what it looks like, how are we suppose to know how to act towards each other?

I think black women and black men have a fair share of responsibilty of why black marriage is in the state it is today and until we both check ourselves our marriages will continue to crumble.

[Laluna]

i believe it&#39;s simply a sign of the times, and honestly i don&#39;t see that it will get any better. it&#39;s a mistake to single out black marriage as the only ones that are failing. it&#39;s not just black marriage that&#39;s faultering. all races are being affected by what i see as a societal moral decline. there is no sense of moral responsiblity or spiritual consequence to fornicating, divorce, adultry, etc. kids aren&#39;t being feed spirtually anymore. what they are being feed is asteady diet of MTV, BET, casual sex, reality dating shows, divorce as a quick and easy cop out when their marriages aren&#39;t picture perfect.

our communites are more fragile to begin with so we will feel the effects of these trends quicker and more deeply. i guess that&#39;s why it feels like a problem that is uniquely ours. IMO, instilling a sense of morality and Godly values is the only answer.

[Laluna]

<div class='quotemain'>The only way for the state of marriage (not just black marriage) in this country to change would be for people to set standards of what they want their marriages to be like. If all you saw in your neighborhood was lying and cheating on your mate, vow that you will not do what they did.
[/b]
Thank you!

Why is it that people grow up seeing adults act foolish and make mistakes and then go on to be the next neighborhood f--k-up? Why not decide to do better?

Marriage among blacks in America is dismal and declining but that can all change overnight if people will decide to do better. Unfortunately I&#39;m not holding my breath because exhorting people, especially blacks, to do better is construed as "unsympathetic" and of course I can&#39;t know what they&#39;re going through because I must not have ever suffered :rolleyes: Black creativity is at its best when it comes to dreaming up the most ridiculous excuses for not changing feckless ways and persisting in foolishness. As long as people want a free pass for being useless, black marriage, black parenting, black education...heck black anything will continue to be a disappointment and a joke.

[/b][/quote]


IMO, this post is beyond offensive. i don&#39;t even quite know how to approach it. it sounds like something i might hear rush limbaugh spewing. at best it conveys a gross lack of insight into the dymanics of the systematic racism AFRICAN Americans have had to grapple with and it&#39;s effects on AA life/communities. it&#39;s not about "dreaming up ridiculous excuses" it&#39;s about the reality of historical disfranchisment and it&#39;s disastrous effects on the black family unit. something you, nor any other immigrant have had to contend with in America, therefore you would not (especially when you appear not to want to) understand.

black marriage is not a joke. nor is black education, nor is black parenting. these aspects of our culture are in various states of disrepair, yes, but we have made, and continue to make progress in the face of the profound obstacles we have faced.

[citylocs]

I have read a lot of interesting points on this board, and definitely agree with the point that a lot of this "moral" discussion subtly blames women and feminism for the breakdown of families and society.

But I&#39;d rather write about my experience as a 25 year old black woman who is constantly talking to friends about our futures- which include relationships and possibly marriage. In my opinion, part of what is keeping more of my friends from getting married is the exalted IDEAL of the soul mate, perfect partner and perfect marriage. I have good friends who had great partners that they loved for years, shared values, had great friendships, passion etc.- but somehow were not perfect. As my friends, I want them to be the most happy- and hope that they are doing the right thing for themselves- but see a lot of chasing fantasies.

I don&#39;t want to sound anti-romance, but my generation has a short attention span, idolizes unmarried youthful celebrities and have little interest in the hard work that a long relationship takes. In a "I gotta get mine, you get yours" culture (that is purely American, not one race aone), it seems like too much work to work hard at a relationship when more fun is at the next club or party.

[chronicity]

But I&#39;d rather write about my experience as a 25 year old black woman who is constantly talking to friends about our futures- which include relationships and possibly marriage. In my opinion, part of what is keeping more of my friends from getting married is the exalted IDEAL of the soul mate, perfect partner and perfect marriage. [/b]

You&#39;ll see this attitude even on this board. If a guy is described as being less than every woman&#39;s fantasy, then you&#39;ll see lots of women advocating that he should be left alone because "black women shouldn&#39;t have to settle!" What the hell does that mean? People are entitled to a few imperfections before they are considered damaged goods, aren&#39;t they? You wouldn&#39;t know that to hear a lot of folks speak.

And I think that&#39;s a problem, not just with black people, but with everyone. At the first sign of chaos, people think that a relationship is doomed and they give up. And because they do that, they never learn how to work through conflict. When they get married, the same mentality carries over.

[Laluna]

I have read a lot of interesting points on this board, and definitely agree with the point that a lot of this "moral" discussion subtly blames women and feminism for the breakdown of families and society.

But I&#39;d rather write about my experience as a 25 year old black woman who is constantly talking to friends about our futures- which include relationships and possibly marriage. In my opinion, part of what is keeping more of my friends from getting married is the exalted IDEAL of the soul mate, perfect partner and perfect marriage. I have good friends who had great partners that they loved for years, shared values, had great friendships, passion etc.- but somehow were not perfect. As my friends, I want them to be the most happy- and hope that they are doing the right thing for themselves- but see a lot of chasing fantasies.

I don&#39;t want to sound anti-romance, but my generation has a short attention span, idolizes unmarried youthful celebrities and have little interest in the hard work that a long relationship takes. In a "I gotta get mine, you get yours" culture (that is purely American, not one race aone), it seems like too much work to work hard at a relationship when more fun is at the next club or party.
[/b]


IA with your post. but i do believe that this "i gotta get mine" concept is more deeply entrenched in the minds of AA than of other racial groups. i don&#39;t know where it started, but it is detrimental to the making of successful marriages. our ideas are that we need to be happy *first* and foremost. so many times we don&#39;t even know how to go about making a marriage work. i&#39;m gonna be honest here, i didn&#39;t. my mother and father divorced when i was a small child, and my father went on to live with a slew of women. this is the example i witnessed as a child, and so when i got married i still had these ideas about divorce being a viable option when i felt unhappy. i have changed how i view marriage and my responsiblity to my marriage. my husband was the stronger of us when it came to working through difficult times in our marriage, and i believe it was because of the examples he saw growing up. not to say he is perfect, but he had a better understanding of what it is to work through problems.

i don&#39;t know what if anything can be done to turn the tide as a group in this area. we first need to begin to understand exactly how vital strong marriages are to building strong communities. that&#39;s where it needs to start.

[Annlucilu]

black marriage is not a joke. nor is black education, nor is black parenting. these aspects of our culture are in various states of disrepair, yes, but we have made, and continue to make progress in the face of the profound obstacles we have faced.
[/b]

:smil3f72836ee752e:

[wildandkinky]

You&#39;ll see this attitude even on this board. If a guy is described as being less than every woman&#39;s fantasy, then you&#39;ll see lots of women advocating that he should be left alone because "black women shouldn&#39;t have to settle!"
[/b]


The times that settling was part of the discussion on this board, it was with women who were dating men who had baby mamas, was married, were not gainfully employed, were unattractive to the woman, had a prison record or some trouble with alcohol/drugs. I don&#39;t think a woman should have to settle, just because she is black.

People would not bat an eyelid if an average white woman expected a man to be responsible, single, childless, have suitable emloyment, and have not been in trouble with alcohol or the law.
But let an average black woman expect the same and she is accused of living in fantasy land.

[Denny]

<div class='quotemain'>
You&#39;ll see this attitude even on this board. If a guy is described as being less than every woman&#39;s fantasy, then you&#39;ll see lots of women advocating that he should be left alone because "black women shouldn&#39;t have to settle!"
[/b]


The times that settling was part of the discussion on this board, it was with women who were dating men who had baby mamas, was married, were not gainfully employed, were unattractive to the woman, had a prison record or some trouble with alcohol/drugs. I don&#39;t think a woman should have to settle, just because she is black.

People would not bat an eyelid if an average white woman expected a man to be responsible, single, childless, have suitable emloyment, and have not been in trouble with alcohol or the law.
But let an average black woman expect the same and she is accused of living in fantasy land.
[/b][/quote]

Perhaps too many black women suffer from &#39;a man is better than no man&#39; syndrome?

[NappilyEvahAftah]

The fact that people equate a simple, reasonable list with living in fantasy land should tell us just how bad things are. Is a black man with those basic attributes really so hard to come by that it seems fantastic to find one? And that list said nothing about looks or compatibility. Dang, it&#39;s the hard knock life.
[/b]

It&#39;s tight. Most black professional men are NOT willing to settle. They want above-average looks, financial independence, intellectual compatibility and no kids. Yet, I know a few black professional women, who married men who were not/are not on their "level". One woman I know, has a post-graduate degree from Michigan, and married a man who "doesn&#39;t read very well". <_<
She&#39;s a Christian (like me), and waited a VERY long time, to get married. I really think she figured if she didn&#39;t go with this guy, she would never get married. I may be wrong.

According to her, he&#39;s a "good man", and I believe her, and more importantly she&#39;s happy with her decision (so far). BUT, I believe with all my heart, if the script was flipped, most black professional men wouldn&#39;t have given her the time of DAY, let alone some play. They might have tried to get some quick sexual gratification, but she would not have been considered as serious SO material.

Every woman has to decide what "settling" means to her, cuz I&#39;m finding that it varies from woman to woman.

[chronicity]

The times that settling was part of the discussion on this board, it was with women who were dating men who had baby mamas, was married, were not gainfully employed, were unattractive to the woman, had a prison record or some trouble with alcohol/drugs. I don&#39;t think a woman should have to settle, just because she is black.[/b]

Here and in other places, I&#39;ve seen the "settling" card trotted out whenever people&#39;s first impressions don&#39;t jive with their romantic expectations. I&#39;m not talking about attributes such as employment status and prison records. I&#39;m talking about when people advocate running for the hills because a first encounter with someone essentially doesn&#39;t produce love or lust at first sight. Or when someone expresses a little doubt about how about things are currently going in a relationship, and the first thing many people advise is to give up. There doesn&#39;t seem to be a lot of pressure from the community to hold relationships together. We have bought into the idea that if there isn&#39;t instantaneous fireworks, then things aren&#39;t destined to be.

Maybe it&#39;s just me, but I don&#39;t hear a lot of people saying to couples that up and downs are a normal part of being in a relationship; don&#39;t sweat the small stuff; give things time; etc. When times get difficult, it helps to know that rough patches are not always a sign of doom and gloom. Anyone who has been in a long-term relationship knows that. But I tend to see more people advocating quick surrender instead of assuring others that storms often pass. Is this community-wide pessimism a reflection of our relationship problems or a contributing factor to them? I think it&#39;s a little of both. It&#39;s more difficult to hold things together when few people around you are encouraging you to look at the positive. All too often we focus on the negative.

Your experiences may be different from mine. But I see it all the time, even in my circle of friends. Sometimes I feel like I can&#39;t confide to them about my love life because they often try to plant pessimistic, self-defeating thoughts in my head instead merely listening and giving constructive advice. And that sucks. Maybe it would be different if they all had men in their lives, but they don&#39;t.

In the past I suspect that when women had problems with their mates, their family and friends were more likely to encourage them to work things out and be patient. On one hand, this attitude probably caused some women to settle for stuff that they shouldn&#39;t have had; but on the other hand, I think it helped marriages endure for the better. Because our attitude has shifted to a more pessimistic (and yet also idealistic) place, we don&#39;t have that built-in pressure system that helps preserve relationsips. It&#39;s all left to the individuals to do it, and that&#39;s a lot of work.

[charli]

People would not bat an eyelid if an average white woman expected a man to be responsible, single, childless, have suitable emloyment, and have not been in trouble with alcohol or the law.
But let an average black woman expect the same and she is accused of living in fantasy land.[/b]


The fact that people equate a simple, reasonable list with living in fantasy land should tell us just how bad things are. Is a black man with those basic attributes really so hard to come by that it seems fantastic to find one? And that list said nothing about looks or compatibility. Dang, it&#39;s the hard knock life.[/b]


Most black professional men are NOT willing to settle. [/b]

I agree with all these posts.

We have created this environment for ourselves, where we expect each other to settle and we expect to settle. You get what you demand and what you are willing to sacrifice for. The problem is that women get tired of "waiting" and figure the next one that comes along that is good enough, is good enough. Because of the willingness to let some standards slide, ultimately, you get what you ask for, and if it&#39;s not what you want, it&#39;s because somewhere along the lines you compromised what you wanted just to be able to have something.

You only get one shot at life, and you might as well go for it. People are firm about holding on to high aspirations: when it comes to career, education, financial achievement, social status, we totally go for it and don&#39;t pull back. But when it comes to mate selection, well we shouldn&#39;t be so picky.

I wonder where we would be if all those people who had high aspirations in other parts of their live were encourage to live with less than what they wanted. Oh, you want a masters degree, girl, just going to college is good enough, why are you so picky? Why are your standards so unreasonable, are you living in a fantasy? Do we do that? No, we say, go for it girl, you are the bomb, you know you can knock it out of the park.

I don&#39;t think the problems with black marriage have as much to do with people wanting things in a mate, as it has to do with people thinking they can make something they really didn&#39;t want work out, and not having suitable role models to do so. And because we don&#39;t unilaterally hold men to high standards, they don&#39;t feel the need to rise to the occasion *in that particular relationship.*

Because time and time again, I have seen a man be in a relationship with one woman and be like whatever. Then with the next woman, he has his ish together. Why? Because she wouldn&#39;t *settle* for less and he knew he couldn&#39;t keep her without putting in work. If you talk to a lot of men, they know what they *need* to do or *should* do to get a woman, but the thing is they come along and figure they can get plenty of women without achieving those things, so what&#39;s the rush?

[lyndaslocs]

This "settling" idea could be a whole other topic. I&#39;m a professional, my husband is not one. I love him, he loves me. We&#39;re compatible in every other way except what we do for a living. I think a lot of times Black women overlook men who are not lawyers, doctors or titans of industry. There are a lot of great "blue collar" types who would make great family men. If we are honest and realistic, there are a limited number of Black professional men. Those who are, sadly, often aren&#39;t looking to marry a Black woman, and if he does, she has to be a "certain type" of Black woman. You can fill in the blanks, here. If he&#39;s willing to work, honest, drug-free, committed to one woman and capable of showing love, why not give him a chance? It&#39;s not how much money you make, but what you do with your money that counts.

[NappilyEvahAftah]

There are a lot of great "blue collar" types who would make great family men. If we are honest and realistic, there are a limited number of Black professional men. Those who are, sadly, often aren&#39;t looking to marry a Black woman, and if he does, she has to be a "certain type" of Black woman. You can fill in the blanks, here. If he&#39;s willing to work, honest, drug-free, committed to one woman and capable of showing love, why not give him a chance? It&#39;s not how much money you make, but what you do with your money that counts.
[/b]


I agree with you, totally. I just don&#39;t know a lot of black professional men, who would "settle" for non-professional black women. Most are SO afraid that women (especially black women, cuz most of us are "gold diggers", right?) are waiting to "run with the gold", as one brotha I know put it. They&#39;re very concerned about protecting their "assets".

I also wouldn&#39;t date/marry a man, who couldn&#39;t "read very well". One of the "majors" for me is intellectual compatibility.

[chronicity]

I agree with you, totally. I just don&#39;t know a lot of black professional men, who would "settle" for non-professional black women. [/b]

I do. In my experience, men don&#39;t care that much about a woman&#39;s profession. They&#39;ll be impressed if she&#39;s a professional, but usually that&#39;s not one of their requirements. I think it has more to do with what kind of things is she able to talk about, rather than the color of her collar.

[rozlips]

I don&#39;t see the problem as being high expectations, indeed I see the exact opposite. I see too many women hooking up with or marrying men who they know from the jump street have major deal breaking issues. I get the impression that many black women feel desperate and desperation is both unattractive an a bad position to make a relationship from.

I do agree that we have a romanticized version of what a relationship is supposed to be like in this country, but I don&#39;t see that so much in the black community. Frankly what I see is too many folks who haven&#39;t a clue as to what the hell a relationship is supposed to be like, romanticized or otherwise. That&#39;s not surprising as functioning relationships are rare in this society. I don&#39;t know why we expect folk to form a relationship when they don&#39;t have any examples to emulate.

That&#39;s why I believe finding mentor couples and couples&#39; counseling prior to marriage is so vital. And when I&#39;m talking about real counseling, not just a rubber stamp. You have to thoroughly examine and understand what your expectations are versus your partner&#39;s. Oftentimes you&#39;re in for a shock.

[Laluna]

I don&#39;t see the problem as being high expectations, indeed I see the exact opposite. I see too many women hooking up with or marrying men who they know from the jump street have major deal breaking issues. I get the impression that many black women feel desperate and desperation is both unattractive an a bad position to make a relationship from.

I do agree that we have a romanticized version of what a relationship is supposed to be like in this country, but I don&#39;t see that so much in the black community. Frankly what I see is too many folks who haven&#39;t a clue as to what the hell a relationship is supposed to be like, romanticized or otherwise. That&#39;s not surprising as functioning relationships are rare in this society. I don&#39;t know why we expect folk to form a relationship when they don&#39;t have any examples to emulate.

That&#39;s why I believe finding mentor couples and couples&#39; counseling prior to marriage is so vital. And when I&#39;m talking about real counseling, not just a rubber stamp. You have to thoroughly examine and understand what your expectations are versus your partner&#39;s. Oftentimes you&#39;re in for a shock.
[/b]


ITA

[Mae]

<div class='quotemain'>
I agree with you, totally. I just don&#39;t know a lot of black professional men, who would "settle" for non-professional black women. [/b]

I do. In my experience, men don&#39;t care that much about a woman&#39;s profession. They&#39;ll be impressed if she&#39;s a professional, but usually that&#39;s not one of their requirements. I think it has more to do with what kind of things is she able to talk about, rather than the color of her collar.
[/b][/quote]
All of the professional Black men I know are married to professional Black women. They may have babies with or date women without degrees or professional jobs, but they marry the professional women. Now most of the proffesional women I know married professional men, but some did marry blue collar brothers ( and one engineer married a deadbeat).

[wildandkinky]

Look, if you are open to a blue collar man and don&#39;t mind or even notice the disparity in education levels, it&#39;s fine. But if you are dating one and his lack of intellect is a constant source of annoyance to you, but you still want to marry him, imho, you are settling. But it&#39;s not just about education and employment, black women are getting smacked up and down over more than reasonable requirements.
And I think it&#39;s reasonable to have an attractiveness requirement. I think it is perfectly normal to seek out a man that you want to kiss and make love to, he doesn&#39;t have to look like a movie star, but if he puts you off, I don&#39;t think you are gonna have a healthy fulfilling sexual relationship.

People are expecting black women to date further down than any other group of people. Black women keep eachother in check using myths like "There is a shortage of black men", "You need to hurry up and be married at 27 or else you will be an old maid for life" and "Good men of other races don&#39;t want a black woman". Women who believe in these myths tend to get desperate, and, as Roz pointed out, that makes them undesirable in the eyes of men.
This in turn creates a self fulfilling prophesy.

If you don&#39;t consider yourself to be a desirable partner, who can expect her equal, no one else will. If anything, black womens self esteem and expectations should be kicked up a notch. Society in general already does the best it can to break them down, no need for black women to act like crabs in a barrel. (Who does she think she is to expect so much, that uppity *******.) It&#39;s funny how no one mentions men&#39;s expectations to be to high, even though you see plenty of bachelors over 30 who expect a woman to bring more to the table than they do.

[Annlucilu]

All the time I read on the Internet about how dire the situation is for black women and then I go out in real life and don&#39;t see that reflected in any way. The majority of the black women I know are in healthy relationships, either married or dating. I&#39;m not in denial either, I can only speak from my personal experiences. I don&#39;t know man, I&#39;m just not going to buy into the negativity.


So and so percent of black women will never marry..... Okay, so what?


Statistics are so overrated.

[chronicity]

People are expecting black women to date further down than any other group of people. Black women keep eachother in check using myths like "There is a shortage of black men", "You need to hurry up and be married at 27 or else you will be an old maid for life" and "Good men of other races don&#39;t want a black woman". Women who believe in these myths tend to get desperate, and, as Roz pointed out, that makes them undesirable in the eyes of men.
This in turn creates a self fulfilling prophesy. [/b]

I agree, desperation does create problems. There is a whole lot of room between acting desperate and keeping an open mind, though. When it comes to economic parity, I think that&#39;s what lydasloc was hinting at. And I agree with her.

How does this discussion about settling relate to the OP? We keep talking about women settling for bad men: are we to therefore assume that the marriage stats would be better if only women practiced more selectivity?

The problem with that assumption , IMO, is that it implies that the main reason our marriages fail is because the man was acting triflin&#39;, and the woman&#39;s only fault was failing to screen him out in time. We keep talking about women settling for men that are poor mates, but why aren&#39;t we considering the converse, as well--that men are settling for women who are poor mates? It takes two to make a marriage work, and yet this is always a one-sided debate. The finger always seems to turn to the women, even though ironically, the much popular "settling theory" usually rests on the premise that men are the poor doers. I find this interesting.

If all these marriages are failing because the men we settle for are bad characters, then where are all the good characters? Is there a shortage of "good characters"? If so, maybe--just maybe--that&#39;s why so few us are getting married. But wait a minute: Maybe a lot of women are not going after the good characters because they are just not attracted to them. This possibility leads me to ask: Is the question really about "settling", or is it ultimately about black women being socialized to like what is wrong for them?

What does everyone think? I happen to think that there are lot of things going on at the same time, but I can&#39;t say what is the predominate reason for where we are. It&#39;s definitely a complicated issue.

[NappilyEvahAftah]

How does this discussion about settling relate to the OP? We keep talking about women settling for bad men: are we to therefore assume that the marriage stats would be better if only women practiced more selectivity?

We keep talking about women settling for men that are poor mates, but why aren&#39;t we considering the converse, as well--that men are settling for women who are poor mates? It takes two to make a marriage work, and yet this is always a one-sided debate. The finger always seems to turn to the women, even though ironically, the much popular "settling theory" usually rests on the premise that men are the poor doers. I find this interesting.

If all these marriages are failing because the men we settle for are bad characters, then where are all the good characters? Is there a shortage of "good characters"? If so, maybe--just maybe--that&#39;s why so few us are getting married. But wait a minute: Maybe a lot of women are not going after the good characters because they are just not attracted to them. This possibility leads me to ask: Is the question really about "settling", or is it ultimately about black women being socialized to like what is wrong for them?

What does everyone think? I happen to think that there are lot of things going on at the same time, but I can&#39;t say what is the predominate reason for where we are. It&#39;s definitely a complicated issue.

[/b]

No, I&#39;m not saying that women aren&#39;t a significant part of the problem, cuz I believe we are. For every dog, there&#39;s a "dog lover". That&#39;s why so many doggish men get over — because they can. Yes, there are "doggish" women, too.

My point was that it&#39;s interesting how men and women think, when it comes to a willingness to compromise, when it comes to choosing a life partner. That&#39;s not to say that there aren&#39;t men, who settle, or women who don&#39;t. But, I do believe that women are more willing to "make do" for whatever reasons. Men don&#39;t have to settle. Especially brothas who are gettin&#39; paid and livin&#39; large. The most "broke down" brotha can get a decent woman — "decent" as far as the basics: gainfully employed, place to live, car, etc.

I also agree that there&#39;s a segment of the black female population that&#39;s totally caught up in the "thug/playa" or "Mr. MBA" fantasy. They haven&#39;t grown up. They don&#39;t value what&#39;s important, when it comes to choosing a life partner. They don&#39;t want "nice" guys, with blue collar jobs. They just don&#39;t. People want what they want.

[rozlips]

Well, as I said chronicity, I don&#39;t think the main problem is folks. The main problem IMHO is that folks haven&#39;t a clue as to what a relationship is or how to make one. Further, in this microwave society people are not willing to put in the time and effort it takes to form one.

[Denny]

There seems to be a myth that blue collar worker means not educated or not intelligent enough. I have come across fools with degrees in this life. So as an aide do not rule someone out just because he does not have a traditional middle class job, some traditional middle class jobs pay less than some traditional blue collar ones. And the blue collar worker had to work just as hard to get his qualification to do his job.

[Laluna]

There seems to be a myth that blue collar worker means not educated or not intelligent enough. I have come across fools with degrees in this life. So as an aide do not rule someone out just because he does not have a traditional middle class job, some traditional middle class jobs pay less than some traditional blue collar ones. And the blue collar worker had to work just as hard to get his qualification to do his job.
[/b]

this is true. my husband is a "blue collared" worker, a marine electrician who is the sole provider for our family at present and has been since hurricane Katrina swept through. he is a thoroughly capable and responsible husband/father. he devours non-fiction, is better versed in subjects like history, astronomy, and theology than many a master prepared "white collared" professional could hope to be. i have no complaints at all. :)

[steem04]

I think the problem is that many people don&#39;t understand the basic fundamental principles of a marriage. Society in the United States has basically made marriage a mockery and we&#39;ve gotten so far away from what it should be.

In African-American communities, it&#39;s now accepted and in many times encouraged for women to bring children into this world when they are unwed. Some women do this by choice, some women do this because they made poor decisions, some just don&#39;t know any better. Many females have the wrong idea on what they need to do to &#39;keep a man&#39;, and unfortunatley that idea has a lot to do with sex on demand. Men are encouraged to take advantage of and &#39;pimp&#39; and bed as many women as possible. When you come from this type of society, how can you expect a marriage to work?

Most people I know, especially the Black people I know came up in a single-parent household. People in our communities no longer have a model of a stable marriage or how to be a husband or wife. Many people who do decide to get married don&#39;t make it very long. So if folks want to get married, they have no idea what to do because nobody told them or showed them (or did a good job of it). Many don&#39;t want to get married because they don&#39;t see any positive results from it.

In addition, we live in a society that is so focused on me me me and instant gratification, (and marriage is totally not designed for this type of thought). As soon as someone doesn&#39;t like what&#39;s going on - they leave instead of sticking it out. People don&#39;t understand that anything that&#39;s going to last requires maintainence and hard work. If people can&#39;t understand these basic princples, they won&#39;t stay married long (hence the high divorce rate).

As a Christian woman, I must say that the only way a marriage can work in my opinion is if both parties want to please God first and will take the time for Him to mold them into someone ready for that union and they must wait for Him to send them the appropriate person. Once that happens, both parties must still continue to stand firm on Biblical and Godly principles of marriage, or it won&#39;t work.

Marriage is no cake walk, it&#39;s not easy, and it&#39;s not for someone who only thinks of themselves and always wants life to be comfortable, instant and happy. Until people get themselves together first (mentally, spiritually, financially) they can never join themselves to another and expect it to work.
[/b]


Girl, you must have been in my head because a lot of the points you made articulate how I feel as a woman, not just a Black woman. I am 29 years old and I have been dating someone for almost 5 years and I am still not ready for marriage. Don&#39;t know if I ever will be.
When I was growing up, my parents did not have a good marriage. My mother and father fought a lot. There were times police was called. When I got older, I asked my mom why did she continue to stay with my father and she told me she didn&#39;t want people to think she was a bad person. Huh? WTF?

Among my family members, I don&#39;t know of one person who is happily married. I have never had that role model. I got to the point of telling my mom, before she passed away, not to expect a son-in-law because why put myself in that position if most likely than not, it is going to end up in divorce.

People, regardless of race, don&#39;t take marriage seriously. I am not even talking about celebrities but just regular ol&#39; folk. Marriage is seen as disposable. You even have people talking about starter marriages! HUH?! What kind of sense does that make? Why even bother to get married if not even two years down the line you are ready to end it as soon as some trouble comes into the picture?

I have always been of the opinion that marriage is great in theory but not practice. It is nice to believe that there is someone, one person, to spend your life with but you are dealing with human beings who are complex and never stay the same.

[NappilyEvahAftah]

There seems to be a myth that blue collar worker means not educated or not intelligent enough. I have come across fools with degrees in this life. So as an aide do not rule someone out just because he does not have a traditional middle class job, some traditional middle class jobs pay less than some traditional blue collar ones. And the blue collar worker had to work just as hard to get his qualification to do his job.
[/b]

ITA. But see, for some folks, it&#39;s all about..image. They like what the "Professional Black Man" represents. Yeah, a plumber makes mad cash. But he doesn&#39;t have the right image.

You&#39;ve got non-professional folks, who can communicate circles around the "white collars". People often judge your level of intelligence by your conversation — how you communicate and what you talk about.

[Laluna]

I think the problem is that many people don&#39;t understand the basic fundamental principles of a marriage. Society in the United States has basically made marriage a mockery and we&#39;ve gotten so far away from what it should be.

In African-American communities, it&#39;s now accepted and in many times encouraged for women to bring children into this world when they are unwed. Some women do this by choice, some women do this because they made poor decisions, some just don&#39;t know any better. Many females have the wrong idea on what they need to do to &#39;keep a man&#39;, and unfortunatley that idea has a lot to do with sex on demand. Men are encouraged to take advantage of and &#39;pimp&#39; and bed as many women as possible. When you come from this type of society, how can you expect a marriage to work?

Most people I know, especially the Black people I know came up in a single-parent household. People in our communities no longer have a model of a stable marriage or how to be a husband or wife. Many people who do decide to get married don&#39;t make it very long. So if folks want to get married, they have no idea what to do because nobody told them or showed them (or did a good job of it). Many don&#39;t want to get married because they don&#39;t see any positive results from it.

In addition, we live in a society that is so focused on me me me and instant gratification, (and marriage is totally not designed for this type of thought). As soon as someone doesn&#39;t like what&#39;s going on - they leave instead of sticking it out. People don&#39;t understand that anything that&#39;s going to last requires maintainence and hard work. If people can&#39;t understand these basic princples, they won&#39;t stay married long (hence the high divorce rate).

As a Christian woman, I must say that the only way a marriage can work in my opinion is if both parties want to please God first and will take the time for Him to mold them into someone ready for that union and they must wait for Him to send them the appropriate person. Once that happens, both parties must still continue to stand firm on Biblical and Godly principles of marriage, or it won&#39;t work.

Marriage is no cake walk, it&#39;s not easy, and it&#39;s not for someone who only thinks of themselves and always wants life to be comfortable, instant and happy. Until people get themselves together first (mentally, spiritually, financially) they can never join themselves to another and expect it to work.
[/b]

i don&#39;t know how i missed this one. you are speaking truth!! :smil3f72836ee752e:

[China]

Well, as I said chronicity, I don&#39;t think the main problem is folks. The main problem IMHO is that folks haven&#39;t a clue as to what a relationship is or how to make one. Further, in this microwave society people are not willing to put in the time and effort it takes to form one.
[/b]

I agree with this 100%. I keep trying to tell folks that my generation has grown up seeing more cons than pros to marriage. It&#39;s kinda hard to convince a woman that she&#39;d be better off waiting until marriage to have babies when her own father and every other married man in her life was a trifling husband. Young boys are growing up seeing their mothers carry a household (even when an able-bodied man is present). How are they supposed to learn how to be men? In my community, I honestly don&#39;t see a difference between children who grew up in a two parent household vs a single mother. It&#39;s the same outcome: some fail, some don&#39;t. If we could actually see that marriage led to a better success rate, I&#39;m sure we would be all for it.

[Deljah]

I have read a lot of interesting points on this board, and definitely agree with the point that a lot of this "moral" discussion subtly blames women and feminism for the breakdown of families and society.

But I&#39;d rather write about my experience as a 25 year old black woman who is constantly talking to friends about our futures- which include relationships and possibly marriage. In my opinion, part of what is keeping more of my friends from getting married is the exalted IDEAL of the soul mate, perfect partner and perfect marriage. I have good friends who had great partners that they loved for years, shared values, had great friendships, passion etc.- but somehow were not perfect. As my friends, I want them to be the most happy- and hope that they are doing the right thing for themselves- but see a lot of chasing fantasies.

I don&#39;t want to sound anti-romance, but my generation has a short attention span, idolizes unmarried youthful celebrities and have little interest in the hard work that a long relationship takes. In a "I gotta get mine, you get yours" culture (that is purely American, not one race aone), it seems like too much work to work hard at a relationship when more fun is at the next club or party.
[/b]


you said a lot on this one. I agree. Some folks can&#39;t fully be in the relationship they have, because they&#39;re always looking over their shoulder. What if "the one" they&#39;ve been with and love is not "THE One"?

[WildlyBeautiful]

<div class='quotemain'>
There seems to be a myth that blue collar worker means not educated or not intelligent enough. I have come across fools with degrees in this life. So as an aide do not rule someone out just because he does not have a traditional middle class job, some traditional middle class jobs pay less than some traditional blue collar ones. And the blue collar worker had to work just as hard to get his qualification to do his job.
[/b]

ITA. But see, for some folks, it&#39;s all about..image. They like what the "Professional Black Man" represents. Yeah, a plumber makes mad cash. But he doesn&#39;t have the right image.

You&#39;ve got non-professional folks, who can communicate circles around the "white collars". People often judge your level of intelligence by your conversation — how you communicate and what you talk about.
[/b][/quote]

Totally agreed. My dh is supervisor in a manufacturing plant. My friends will go on and on and on about how blessed I am because he is what women look for in a man (loyal, supportive, intelligent, caring, puts me first). But on the other hand they will meet men with similar qualities and then will say....."Girl...he only make $35k a year....I can&#39;t get with him......" or have these big long lists of things that men must have before they even give him the time of day.

Now...by no means am I saying a woman has to lower her standards...but I do question that if one passes up good quality men who will be great fathers, great husbands and providers(maybe not the Escalade...but a Taurus, not a $350k house..but a #175k house....not a vacation in Spain...but a family vacation in Myrtle Beach....) and will &#39;ride and die&#39; with you for a "image" for lack of a better word.

I do also agree with the person who stated that she believes people have bought into the hype of soulmates or it being gravy all the time. Marriage is hard. It is probably the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. It has helped that both my dh and I came from homes with parents who were(mine, my father is deceased) married 30+ years. I do think it helps a great deal to have mirrors of people who have successful marriages for long periods of time. I can state that I noticed a difference right away from my dh and the men I dated whose fathers were not in the home. My dh did not feel the need to over identify with the group mentality of the boys. His self esteem did not come from that. If he wanted to be with me...show his love for me. He did that. He didn&#39;t fear backlash from his "boys". He already had that from his own father. But I disgress.......

I don&#39;t think its necessary though. If one makes up their minds that they are going to break the cycle for themselves and their children, then it can be done. There are to many instances where this happened for it not to be true. It just doesn&#39;t seem as if people want to work through those hard patches anymore like they once did.

[jazzysgurl316]

I think that society today is looking at marriage the wrong way. Marriage is suppose to be about family and togetherness instead society is looking at marriage as a political agenda or to meet a status quo.

[swingbolder]

It has helped that both my dh and I came from homes with parents who were(mine, my father is deceased) married 30+ years. [/b]

I agree. My first husband had no examples of longterm marriages growing up and he left me when the going got tough (money problems, first baby, busy schedules, stress). My current husband and I (together seven years) have been through similar types of problems but it&#39;s only made us stronger. We are still very much in love and feel our bond has grown stronger bc we&#39;ve been through so much together and we have survived. Both of us have parents who are still married, mine for about forty years, his for over fifty years. To me, divorce is just not an option unless my @ss is being severely beaten or something like that. People are too quick to bail. I like the term somebody used "mircrowave society" bc it really describes many of our mindsets.

[WildlyBeautiful]

It has helped that both my dh and I came from homes with parents who were(mine, my father is deceased) married 30+ years. [/b]

I agree. My first husband had no examples of longterm marriages growing up and he left me when the going got tough (money problems, first baby, busy schedules, stress). My current husband and I (together seven years) have been through similar types of problems but it&#39;s only made us stronger. We are still very much in love and feel our bond has grown stronger bc we&#39;ve been through so much together and we have survived. Both of us have parents who are still married, mine for about forty years, his for over fifty years. To me, divorce is just not an option unless my @ss is being severely beaten or something like that. People are too quick to bail. I like the term somebody used "mircrowave society" bc it really describes many of our mindsets.
[/b]

My dh and I often state that we experienced our parents arguing, being mad or upset, having little or no money, raising us (in old age) etc. The thing is that they disscussed it and moved on, they worked through it. It was reflected in their actions that your individual feelings don&#39;t overide the families goals. So we both work from that collective idea. I do understand that it may be harder for people who did not see that growing up.

[BuddhaBelly]

<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>The only way for the state of marriage (not just black marriage) in this country to change would be for people to set standards of what they want their marriages to be like. If all you saw in your neighborhood was lying and cheating on your mate, vow that you will not do what they did.
[/b]
Thank you!

Why is it that people grow up seeing adults act foolish and make mistakes and then go on to be the next neighborhood f--k-up? Why not decide to do better?

Marriage among blacks in America is dismal and declining but that can all change overnight if people will decide to do better. Unfortunately I&#39;m not holding my breath because exhorting people, especially blacks, to do better is construed as "unsympathetic" and of course I can&#39;t know what they&#39;re going through because I must not have ever suffered :rolleyes: Black creativity is at its best when it comes to dreaming up the most ridiculous excuses for not changing feckless ways and persisting in foolishness. As long as people want a free pass for being useless, black marriage, black parenting, black education...heck black anything will continue to be a disappointment and a joke.

[/b][/quote]


IMO, this post is beyond offensive. i don&#39;t even quite know how to approach it. it sounds like something i might hear rush limbaugh spewing. at best it conveys a gross lack of insight into the dymanics of the systematic racism AFRICAN Americans have had to grapple with and it&#39;s effects on AA life/communities. it&#39;s not about "dreaming up ridiculous excuses" it&#39;s about the reality of historical disfranchisment and it&#39;s disastrous effects on the black family unit. something you, nor any other immigrant have had to contend with in America, therefore you would not (especially when you appear not to want to) understand.

black marriage is not a joke. nor is black education, nor is black parenting. these aspects of our culture are in various states of disrepair, yes, but we have made, and continue to make progress in the face of the profound obstacles we have faced.
[/b][/quote]

I might get put on blast for this but...

Why is slavery blamed for the state of marriage today? Black marriages have been declining according to that survey; meaning that as we move farther and farther from tht actual date of slavery less Black men and women get married. I would expect that for slavery to have such a detrimental affect onBlack marriages, wouldn&#39;t it have ramifications closer to the date?

[sonce]

IMO, this post is beyond offensive. i don&#39;t even quite know how to approach it. it sounds like something i might hear rush limbaugh spewing. at best it conveys a gross lack of insight into the dymanics of the systematic racism AFRICAN Americans have had to grapple with and it&#39;s effects on AA life/communities. [/b]
I guess Rush Limbaugh and I do have something in common after all? :dunno:


I might get put on blast for this but...

Why is slavery blamed for the state of marriage today? Black marriages have been declining according to that survey; meaning that as we move farther and farther from tht actual date of slavery less Black men and women get married. I would expect that for slavery to have such a detrimental affect onBlack marriages, wouldn&#39;t it have ramifications closer to the date?
[/b]
Scandalous.

If I could, I would revoke your black pass.

;)

[Rhapsodie]

You&#39;ll see this attitude even on this board. If a guy is described as being less than every woman&#39;s fantasy, then you&#39;ll see lots of women advocating that he should be left alone because "black women shouldn&#39;t have to settle!" What the hell does that mean? People are entitled to a few imperfections before they are considered damaged goods, aren&#39;t they? You wouldn&#39;t know that to hear a lot of folks speak.

And I think that&#39;s a problem, not just with black people, but with everyone. At the first sign of chaos, people think that a relationship is doomed and they give up. And because they do that, they never learn how to work through conflict. When they get married, the same mentality carries over.
[/b]




<div class='quotemain'>
Well, as I said chronicity, I don&#39;t think the main problem is folks. The main problem IMHO is that folks haven&#39;t a clue as to what a relationship is or how to make one. Further, in this microwave society people are not willing to put in the time and effort it takes to form one.
[/b]

I agree with this 100%. I keep trying to tell folks that my generation has grown up seeing more cons than pros to marriage. It&#39;s kinda hard to convince a woman that she&#39;d be better off waiting until marriage to have babies when her own father and every other married man in her life was a trifling husband. Young boys are growing up seeing their mothers carry a household (even when an able-bodied man is present). How are they supposed to learn how to be men? In my community, I honestly don&#39;t see a difference between children who grew up in a two parent household vs a single mother. It&#39;s the same outcome: some fail, some don&#39;t. If we could actually see that marriage led to a better success rate, I&#39;m sure we would be all for it.
[/b][/quote]


:smil3f72836ee752e: ITA with these posts. I&#39;m 19 years old and my parents have been together for 20 years. It hasn&#39;t been easy for them, they&#39;ve had their struggles and fights and there were times me and sister thought they weren&#39;t gonna work things out. But they keep surprising us and they WORK THINGS OUT. Because I have this example in my life and because of the things they have taught me about patience(still tryin to work on this one tho :blush: ) and not throwin in the towel so quickly and easily has made me realize that I view life differently from ppl I know that didn&#39;t have that example to emulate and follow. I don&#39;t date a lot because for me dating isn&#39;t something I do on a whim. I f I decide that I like a guy enough to want to date him, I&#39;m thinking long-term (not marriage right away, but eventually somewhere down the line). Those that don&#39;t have this example, that I&#39;ve seen, don&#39;t understand how I&#39;m 19 and still haven&#39;t been in a serious relationship with someone, why I&#39;m still a virgin, etc. So like other ppl have said it depends how examples you&#39;ve seen growing up. If you have never seen two ppl come together and try to work out their problems, or seen a &#39;good&#39; black marriage, how can you learn what a &#39;good&#39; black marriage is. &#39;Children live what they learn&#39;.

Just my :2cents:

[Gyroscope]

<div class='quotemain'>IMO, this post is beyond offensive. i don&#39;t even quite know how to approach it. it sounds like something i might hear rush limbaugh spewing. at best it conveys a gross lack of insight into the dymanics of the systematic racism AFRICAN Americans have had to grapple with and it&#39;s effects on AA life/communities. [/b]
I guess Rush Limbaugh and I do have something in common after all? :dunno:


I might get put on blast for this but...

Why is slavery blamed for the state of marriage today? Black marriages have been declining according to that survey; meaning that as we move farther and farther from tht actual date of slavery less Black men and women get married. I would expect that for slavery to have such a detrimental affect onBlack marriages, wouldn&#39;t it have ramifications closer to the date?
[/b]
Scandalous.

If I could, I would revoke your black pass.

;)
[/b][/quote]

You know, I get tired of cats trying to be gatekeepers for what is considered black. The woman had an opinion, so be it. But to say that if you could revoke her black pass.....get out of here with that bullchyt. Somebody called me a coon for saying I didn&#39;t give a damn who Eve dated. And I&#39;m thinking to myself "who the phuck are you (person on other MB)?" If we&#39;re trying to build community, then lets build comm-unity.

I understand her point, but I take it like one does who has been the victim of physical violence or sexual abuse as a child. You&#39;re never going to get the past back. And there comes a time when regardless of the scars, that person must make sense of what has happened to them and then they have to move on. It&#39;s the only way they are going to survive. And that is the same for us as black people....we have to move on. The problem is you can&#39;t do that with a large group. So some of us move on, others keep an eye to the past and when the two mingle conflict occurs.

Now that being said........there are many issues that have come into play in destroying black marriage; slavery being ONE of them. But you can add American capitalism, the invention of the birth control pill, the first and second sexual revolution, the denial of basic human rights up until the 1970&#39;s (which I personnally believe has had more of an impact on black america than slavery ever could), the changing demographics of the workforce, etc etc etc.........

Is there a way to solve this? No. It&#39;s a shame, but it is what it is. This new generation that&#39;s running the streets right now have been completely immersed in the "divorce age/ baby momma-daddy age". You can really hope that your just doing the best for yourself and providing a good marriage model for your kids.....but as a group? THAT&#39;S A WRAP FOR THAT!

We&#39;ve always been a society of day to day thinkers. When I mean "we" in this instance, I&#39;m talking about everyone (black, white, etc etc). A true marriage partner, at least in my opinion, is developed through long term thinking and ideas. A marrige is a committment between two people who have decided to become LIFE PARTNERS....not breadwinner and spender, not good dyck and good pucci, not father of one of my three kids and mother of one of my two kids......BUT LIFE PARTNERS. This LIFE PARTNER is the person I plan with, cry to, clean with, balance our budget with........make babies with, raise those babies with, console, care for aging parents with, support and console when aging parents die, fight for, fight with, agree, disagree, stay at home on the weekends because our kids are young with, etc etc .......it&#39;s not something that is done as a whim or done because it sounds good.

Here&#39;s my idea for marriage. It is a 10 month plan. You&#39;re "married" for 10 months. You do the typical relationship stuff. And then for those remaining 2 months, you sleep in seperate beds and/or rooms, abstain from sex with that person (helpful but not essential see below), you get that second job to make some extra money (optional), you take a vacation with just your friends (optional), or you work on you (go the gym and lose that gut fat, get a makeover, learn a new language etc) and then you and your partner sit down and objectively go through what you&#39;ve done right for the year, what you&#39;ve done wrong. You set goals for the coming year, you get whatever feelings you have been harboring for the person out and you hash them out and come to some conclusion. You have a marriage coach who objectively keeps you on the path to success....This is at least my plan...You can even cheat on your partner WITH your partner in these two months with all types of role playing possibilities............

[sonce]

<div class='quotemain'>
I might get put on blast for this but...

Why is slavery blamed for the state of marriage today? Black marriages have been declining according to that survey; meaning that as we move farther and farther from tht actual date of slavery less Black men and women get married. I would expect that for slavery to have such a detrimental affect onBlack marriages, wouldn&#39;t it have ramifications closer to the date?
[/b]
Scandalous.

If I could, I would revoke your black pass.

;)
[/b]

You know, I get tired of cats trying to be gatekeepers for what is considered black. The woman had an opinion, so be it. But to say that if you could revoke her black pass.....get out of here with that bullchyt. Somebody called me a coon for saying I didn&#39;t give a damn who Eve dated. And I&#39;m thinking to myself "who the phuck are you (person on other MB)?" If we&#39;re trying to build community, then lets build comm-unity.[/b][/quote]
:lol:

Come now, surely you didn&#39;t think I was serious?

That was a complete joke parodying some of the responses I expected she would soon be getting from the Soul Patrol.

Your sense of humor needs work but I think your energetic defense of her was endearing :wub:

[Gyroscope]

:lol:

Come now, surely you didn&#39;t think I was serious?

That was a complete joke parodying some of the responses I expected she would soon be getting from the Soul Patrol.

Your sense of humor needs work but I think your energetic defense of her was endearing :wub:
[/b]

Hell yeah I thought you were. As much as I hear that ish on other MB&#39;s it&#39;s like when is enough enough? So if you werent serious, then my apologies to YOU. But just as a general statement, I think questioning people&#39;s blackness is getting old........

Now in terms of my humor needing work: If I knew you outside of this messageboard you&#39;d think I&#39;m one of the funniest people you know. And I can say that with complete confidence.

The issue is a serious issue....so I had my serious glasses on. My bad!

[Laluna]

<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>The only way for the state of marriage (not just black marriage) in this country to change would be for people to set standards of what they want their marriages to be like. If all you saw in your neighborhood was lying and cheating on your mate, vow that you will not do what they did.
[/b]
Thank you!

Why is it that people grow up seeing adults act foolish and make mistakes and then go on to be the next neighborhood f--k-up? Why not decide to do better?

Marriage among blacks in America is dismal and declining but that can all change overnight if people will decide to do better. Unfortunately I&#39;m not holding my breath because exhorting people, especially blacks, to do better is construed as "unsympathetic" and of course I can&#39;t know what they&#39;re going through because I must not have ever suffered :rolleyes: Black creativity is at its best when it comes to dreaming up the most ridiculous excuses for not changing feckless ways and persisting in foolishness. As long as people want a free pass for being useless, black marriage, black parenting, black education...heck black anything will continue to be a disappointment and a joke.

[/b][/quote]


IMO, this post is beyond offensive. i don&#39;t even quite know how to approach it. it sounds like something i might hear rush limbaugh spewing. at best it conveys a gross lack of insight into the dymanics of the systematic racism AFRICAN Americans have had to grapple with and it&#39;s effects on AA life/communities. it&#39;s not about "dreaming up ridiculous excuses" it&#39;s about the reality of historical disfranchisment and it&#39;s disastrous effects on the black family unit. something you, nor any other immigrant have had to contend with in America, therefore you would not (especially when you appear not to want to) understand.

black marriage is not a joke. nor is black education, nor is black parenting. these aspects of our culture are in various states of disrepair, yes, but we have made, and continue to make progress in the face of the profound obstacles we have faced.
[/b][/quote]

I might get put on blast for this but...

Why is slavery blamed for the state of marriage today? Black marriages have been declining according to that survey; meaning that as we move farther and farther from tht actual date of slavery less Black men and women get married. I would expect that for slavery to have such a detrimental affect on Black marriages, wouldn&#39;t it have ramifications closer to the date?
[/b][/quote]

this you will have to ask of the person who blamed "slavery" because that person is not me. i did not "blame slavery", i sited a historical legacy of racism and oppression that merely began with the enslavement of Africans as being a major contributing factor in why black marriage is in as fragile as it is.

i reject this implied notion that African Americans are somehow morally inferior, less intelligent, less motivated to "do better", etc than whites, africans, or whoever..and so that must be why we are faring worse off than others and that must be why our marriages are failing in higher numbers than other groups in america. lord knows it couldn&#39;t have anything to do with a legacy of black men not being able to care for their families because of a system of racism that was designed for their failure, and a legacy of black women too often having to assume the role of primary bread winners, thus symbolically castrating their men and setting off the trend of gender role reversal within the black family unit that has spiraled into a condition rather than a problem.

my position has not been about "blaming" anybody or anything. the concept of blame involves absolving oneself or people of personal reponsiblity, and i would never suggest that AA share no responsiblity in our state today. i see very well (and lament about it regularly) our roles in our situation. but i understand that it is not at all as simple as some would suggest that it is. my position is about acknowledging a system that was set in place up for the failure of the black family, and it&#39;s also about not sitting by and allowing for the unchecked malignment of my people by anybody talking out the side of their neck.

[lyndaslocs]

I think there is a difference between "blame" and "explanation." The idea that slavery influenced the current state of affairs among African-Americans is a theory, which is subject to interpretation. It&#39;s just my opinion that the legacy of enslavement in America continues to have a very strong influence in many day-to-day aspects of our lives.

[Twistie74]

I think there is a difference between "blame" and "explanation." The idea that slavery influenced the current state of affairs among African-Americans is a theory, which is subject to interpretation. It&#39;s just my opinion that the legacy of enslavement in America continues to have a very strong influence in many day-to-day aspects of our lives.
[/b]


I agree.

[Nappytop]

<div class='quotemain'>
I agree with you, totally. I just don&#39;t know a lot of black professional men, who would "settle" for non-professional black women. [/b]

I do. In my experience, men don&#39;t care that much about a woman&#39;s profession. They&#39;ll be impressed if she&#39;s a professional, but usually that&#39;s not one of their requirements. I think it has more to do with what kind of things is she able to talk about, rather than the color of her collar.
[/b][/quote]




<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
I agree with you, totally. I just don&#39;t know a lot of black professional men, who would "settle" for non-professional black women. [/b]

I do. In my experience, men don&#39;t care that much about a woman&#39;s profession. They&#39;ll be impressed if she&#39;s a professional, but usually that&#39;s not one of their requirements. I think it has more to do with what kind of things is she able to talk about, rather than the color of her collar.
[/b][/quote]
All of the professional Black men I know are married to professional Black women. They may have babies with or date women without degrees or professional jobs, but they marry the professional women. Now most of the proffesional women I know married professional men, but some did marry blue collar brothers ( and one engineer married a deadbeat).
[/b][/quote]

I understand that you have an opinion, but I can tell you that you are not going to find many professional black men with the cashier at walmart. (nothing is wrong with that I am just giving an example, A cashier is an honest living)
Professional men care what a woman does for a living because our generation (X & Y ) is all about image. The first thing you hear professional men and women ask is what do u do? I know that that is big here in atlanta. I have many male friends that say they would not marry a cashier at mcdonalds no matter how pretty because she works at Mcdonalds. By the way..there are very smart women who r not educatedand can speak on an array of subjects, but from my experience of dating professional black men, they love to talk about college, work, and cultural things that many non -educated women (without the family experience or background) would not know about. That seems to be what happens in Atlanta I don&#39;t know about in other parts of the country. A black female will more than likely marry a non-professional man than a black male.

[sonce]

All of the professional Black men I know are married to professional Black women. They may have babies with or date women without degrees or professional jobs, but they marry the professional women.

A black female will more than likely marry a non-professional man than a black male.
[/b]
I&#39;ve noticed this in America too. Chalk it up to how eagerly the black community encourages professional women to marry down. "A man is more than his salary" "A plumber is a good man too." Funny how the same pressure isn&#39;t put on professional black men who think they deserve nothing short of a runway model with the IQ of Einstein and the cooking skills of Patty Labelle if they manage to so much as graduate college.

[chronicity]

I understand that you have an opinion, but I can tell you that you are not going to find many professional black men with the cashier at walmart. (nothing is wrong with that I am just giving an example, A cashier is an honest living)
Professional men care what a woman does for a living because our generation (X & Y ) is all about image. The first thing you hear professional men and women ask is what do u do? I know that that is big here in atlanta. I have many male friends that say they would not marry a cashier at mcdonalds no matter how pretty because she works at Mcdonalds. [/b]

It&#39;s not necessary to point to extremes, though. There is a big difference between a doctor, for example, and a cashier at McDonald&#39;s, and it was not my intention to suggest that the two would likely date one another. However, an IT professional (white collar) and a certified electrician (blue-collar) are not miles apart from one another.

All I&#39;m saying is that men do not care about what women do for a living as much as women care about men&#39;s jobs. A white-collar man is more likely to go with a blue-collar woman than the other way around.

Whenever someone says blue-collar, the image that pops into everyone&#39;s head are the types of jobs that most of us had as teenagers. "Professional" does not always mean someone is raking in six figures as a doctor or lawyer and "service-sector" doesn&#39;t always mean someone is pushing a mop and scraping by on minimum wage.

[swingbolder]

Funny how the same pressure isn&#39;t put on professional black men who think they deserve nothing short of a runway model with the IQ of Einstein and the cooking skills of Patty Labelle if they manage to so much as graduate college.[/b]

Men don&#39;t get the same kind of pressure bc their reality is different. Like it or not the more degrees and money a man has the larger his pool of women gets while the opposite is true for women and not just black women. Men have traditionally dated and married women who are not their economic equals, whereas women want someone on their economic level or above.

The same goes for age. The older a man gets the larger his pool of women gets, he can get a woman his age or a younger woman. While for women, the pool gets smaller as she gets older.

It&#39;s unfair, but there it is. That&#39;s why men don&#39;t get the same kind of pressure. They don&#39;t have to alter their standards to get a mate.

[sonce]

Men don&#39;t get the same kind of pressure bc their reality is different. Like it or not the more degrees and money a man has the larger his pool of women gets while the opposite is true for women and not just black women. Men have traditionally dated and married women who are not their economic equals, whereas women want someone on their economic level or above.[/b]
I&#39;ve heard this before and it might hold true on average but I&#39;m not sure the relation between a female&#39;s education/income and her marriage options is as simple as it seems. Through my mother, academia, work, my school&#39;s alumni program, and other sources, I have attached myself to a variety of professional women like a lamprey in order to better understand what it is like. From what I see, I suspect that the reason more educated women have a harder time getting married is because:

(1) more educated women are more career-oriented and even those who really do want to get married seem to see it as something that will interfere with their upward movement in the firm/company, and thus as something to be postponed until older ages.

(2) more educated women generally aren&#39;t as marriage-eager as their lesser educated counterparts. The one common feature these women share is a more dismissive attitude towards becoming "domesticated" and little effort put into finding a life partner (except for the 35+ ones) as opposed to a date or convenient live-in arrangement.

Neither of these factors has anything to do with a woman&#39;s attractiveness to those of the opposite sex. So more and more, I am beginning to suspect that more educated, financially situated women have decreased options because they wait longer (30+), put less effort into the &#39;man hunt&#39; than their secretary/school teacher/beautician counterparts, and feel less incentive to tough out anything they perceive as nonsense because they can secure the lifestyle they want for themselves (as opposed to having to marry for it). This doesn&#39;t match the impression I&#39;ve been led to have (that higher educated women must settle or have less options because men are threatened by women who are on par with the educationally/financially or that men find women of lower classes more attractive with all things held equal).

Going by this, there is no reason a professional woman seriously interested in marrying a man that meets all her expectations should have to settle. If she is serious and marriage-oriented, she should most likely not wait until she has to compete with women 10+ years younger for the same man nor will she let herself be bogged down by relationships going nowhere simply for the sake of convenience...which is what I see many of these career women doing. My mom likes to use them as examples of all the mistakes NOT to make because she wants me to marry and marry well instead of hauling an electrician home at 39 years old (and she is a lawyer who married a doctor at 25 and had the domestic dream with a career).

The point I am trying to bring out is that the perception that professional women have it worse than their less professional mates doesn&#39;t take into consideration the differing importance of marriage to these two groups. If a professional woman values marriage as much as her less professional counterpart and gets cracking on it, I don&#39;t see what factors will conspire to make her have to settle...except the perception that exists solely in her own mind as a result of &#39;stats&#39; and &#39;friendly advice&#39; insisting that her options are limited.

That&#39;s just my :2cents:. Maybe you as an older woman know better or maybe we create our own realities according to our perspective. Who knows.

ETA: When I say "men," I am not talking about black men exclusively. My dating pool (if I don&#39;t end up marrying my SO, God forbid) encompasses all the men in in America that fit my socioeconomic, physical, and personality standards. I am very attracted to men of other races and have never dated only black men. But if I was looking at black men in America as my only options, my rhetoric might be different considering all the factors that "conspire" to skew the pool of marriageable, educated, upper socioeconomic status, black men. However, I&#39;m not.

[chronicity]

It&#39;s unfair, but there it is. That&#39;s why men don&#39;t get the same kind of pressure. They don&#39;t have to alter their standards to get a mate.
[/b]

This is a good point. Why would we expect black men to hear the same kind of things black women do when their selection pool is better than ours?

Let&#39;s face it: a black male professional is more likely to be surrounded by black female professionals than the other way away around. A woman who turns her nose up at any man who is not a professional is increasing her chances of staying single, especially he if she only wants a black professional man. That is reality, unfair or not.

[BrittanyanJ]

It&#39;s not necessary to point to extremes, though. There is a big difference between a doctor, for example, and a cashier at McDonald&#39;s, and it was not my intention to suggest that the two would likely date one another. However, an IT professional (white collar) and a certified electrician (blue-collar) are not miles apart from one another.

All I&#39;m saying is that men do not care about what women do for a living as much as women care about men&#39;s jobs. A white-collar man is more likely to go with a blue-collar woman than the other way around.

Whenever someone says blue-collar, the image that pops into everyone&#39;s head are the types of jobs that most of us had as teenagers. "Professional" does not always mean someone is raking in six figures as a doctor or lawyer and "service-sector" doesn&#39;t always mean someone is pushing a mop and scraping by on minimum wage.
[/b]

This was news to me!
In my history class yesterday we were talking about blue-collar and white-collar jobs and how sometimes it&#39;s hard to distinguish the two, unless you really think about it. For example, you may have a professor and a lawyer married to each other, where the wife is the lawyer and the husband is the professor. Being a professor is a blue-collar job; being a lawyer is white-collar. Most people would not think of that as &#39;marrying down,&#39; but TECHNICALLY it is, just by that definition; but of course, those are both highly respected professions.

[Laluna]

This was news to me!
In my history class yesterday we were talking about blue-collar and white-collar jobs and how sometimes it&#39;s hard to distinguish the two, unless you really think about it. For example, you may have a professor and a lawyer married to each other, where the wife is the lawyer and the husband is the professor. Being a professor is a blue-collar job; being a lawyer is white-collar. Most people would not think of that as &#39;marrying down,&#39; but TECHNICALLY it is, just by that definition; but of course, those are both highly respected professions.
[/b]


since when is being a teacher/professor considered blue collar work?

[sonce]

I&#39;ve never heard such a thing either. A teacher/professor is not a blue collar job. The term blue collar comes from wearing a uniform (think mill worker or mechanic in a blue shirt) as opposed to white shirt (white collar) and tie.
[/b]
I&#39;ve also never heard of a professor being considered blue collar...

[Nappytop]

since when is being a teacher/professor considered blue collar work?
[/b]




I&#39;ve never heard such a thing either. A teacher/professor is not a blue collar job. The term blue collar comes from wearing a uniform (think mill worker or mechanic in a blue shirt) as opposed to white shirt (white collar) and tie.
[/b]




I&#39;ve also never heard of a professor being considered blue collar...
[/b]

I am a teacher and I have NEVER been considered Blue collar. This is NEWS to me! :)

Anyway..the point that I want to make is this: Professional black males tend to marry only professional black females because of status and not necessarily salary. I would like to state that most of the professional black people that I know make the same or less than many of the blue collar workers that I know. The example that Sonce gave was good about marrying well but I beg to differ. I know a few Lawyers who make maybe ( that&#39;s pushing it)100,000 a year. I know an electrican who owns his own business who makes that or more. Titles don&#39;t impress me. Marrying well in my opinion is marrying someone who earns a good living or is wealthy. I know that the 2 lawyers that I have dated was no where NEAR wealthy. I would not have considered marrying them marrying well. :lol: ( it would have been a status thing) My Dear Daddy is a blue collar worker who makes a comparable salary as many lawyers and a quite a few doctors. I am not against marrying blue collar but I know that most black professionals prefer other professionals. I look at Dear Dad as an example of how the blue collar workers can live. My dad is getting remarried in June and his wife IS Marrying Well. :)

[BrittanyanJ]

welll I dunno, thats just what my professor said. I did look it up in Wikipedia and they said the difference is that blue collar is more hands-on and service-oriented, and thus I think thats how my professor came to that conclusion, since--as she put it--she is working more with the students. She said too that the university administrators would be moreso considered white-collar, so I dunno. She&#39;s from Zimbabwe, so from her POV it may seem that way. But yes, good point Nappytop about the status, I agree. ~peace~

[utamu]

I&#39;ve heard this before and it might hold true on average but I&#39;m not sure the relation between a female&#39;s education/income and her marriage options is as simple as it seems. Through my mother, academia, work, my school&#39;s alumni program, and other sources, I have attached myself to a variety of professional women like a lamprey in order to better understand what it is like. From what I see, I suspect that the reason more educated women have a harder time getting married is because:

(1) more educated women are more career-oriented and even those who really do want to get married seem to see it as something that will interfere with their upward movement in the firm/company, and thus as something to be postponed until older ages.

(2) more educated women generally aren&#39;t as marriage-eager as their lesser educated counterparts. The one common feature these women share is a more dismissive attitude towards becoming "domesticated" and little effort put into finding a life partner (except for the 35+ ones) as opposed to a date or convenient live-in arrangement.

Neither of these factors has anything to do with a woman&#39;s attractiveness to those of the opposite sex. So more and more, I am beginning to suspect that more educated, financially situated women have decreased options because they wait longer (30+), put less effort into the &#39;man hunt&#39; than their secretary/school teacher/beautician counterparts, and feel less incentive to tough out anything they perceive as nonsense because they can secure the lifestyle they want for themselves (as opposed to having to marry for it). This doesn&#39;t match the impression I&#39;ve been led to have (that higher educated women must settle or have less options because men are threatened by women who are on par with the educationally/financially or that men find women of lower classes more attractive with all things held equal).

Going by this, there is no reason a professional woman seriously interested in marrying a man that meets all her expectations should have to settle. If she is serious and marriage-oriented, she should most likely not wait until she has to compete with women 10+ years younger for the same man nor will she let herself be bogged down by relationships going nowhere simply for the sake of convenience...which is what I see many of these career women doing. My mom likes to use them as examples of all the mistakes NOT to make because she wants me to marry and marry well instead of hauling an electrician home at 39 years old (and she is a lawyer who married a doctor at 25 and had the domestic dream with a career).

The point I am trying to bring out is that the perception that professional women have it worse than their less professional mates doesn&#39;t take into consideration the differing importance of marriage to these two groups. If a professional woman values marriage as much as her less professional counterpart and gets cracking on it, I don&#39;t see what factors will conspire to make her have to settle...except the perception that exists solely in her own mind as a result of &#39;stats&#39; and &#39;friendly advice&#39; insisting that her options are limited.


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I don&#39;t always agree with your posts on this issue - but these all very good points sonce. These discussions about the black male shortage usually imply that all single black women are &#39;available&#39; for marriage. But just because a woman is single does not mean she&#39;s looking to get married (at least right now). For every black woman I know who&#39;s goal is marriage, I know one who isn&#39;t thrilled with the idea of marraige or sees it as a goal only for the distant future.

But since marriage is a goal for me, I hear you about how a lot of professional women thinking they have all the time in the world...I&#39;m in no way desperate to snatch a husband up, but I dismiss the advice of friends who advocate time-wasting frivolous relationships because I&#39;m 25 and &#39;still young.&#39;