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View Full Version : Why do you think so many Blacks convert to Islam?



Alas1119
02-26-2003, 02:39 AM
More so than other racial groups in this country. I read an article that said that most Muslims in this country are African-American. I'm wondering what is it about Islam that attracts so many black people to it. I'm not really talking about the Nation of Islam either (which I don't consider to be true Islam). I'm talking about mainstream Sunni Islam.

lovinblackness
02-26-2003, 03:41 AM
This may be true now, but it is quickly changing. I would not be surprised if within ten years (maybe less) white American people would close to equal our numbers. There is also a growing phenomenon of latino converts, I've read at least three articles in the last six months covering the wave of latino conversions to Islam.

The history of Islam and african-americans go back as far as slavery, as a significant number of slaves brought over were Muslim. Of course that does not necessarily account for current conversion. I think the Nation of Islam and the legacy of Malik Al-Shabazz (Malcolm X) brought tremendous benefit to our community and at least in the beginning were a source of pride for us. In most black communities that I have been in they still get a lot of respect, even from those who are cynical about their shortcomings. For many African-Americans the NOI is a door to 'mainstream' Islam. I think a lot of people saw converting to Islam, especially as it is preached by the NOI and its off shoots was a step for many African-Americans in rejecting the centuries of conditioned self-hate. The Nation told us that we were not only worthy but the best people on earth, amongst other things. Many people who convert don't necessarily remain Muslim but for a lot of people it is a stepping stone to greater self-love. I think for some people the issue is more a rejection of christianity than an acceptance of Islam. For those of us that stuck it out and decide that we believe, its like any other choice. It works for us.

afrikankween
02-26-2003, 03:48 AM
I think the NOI is very appealing because it is a religion that speaks to black folks specifically. I wonder what percentage of AAs are Sunni muslims?

amalah9
02-26-2003, 04:58 AM
Alas1119 wrote:

I'm not really talking about the Nation of Islam either (which I don't consider to be true Islam).

I've heard a lot of people say statements similar to this one. I always wondered what they mean by true or real Islam?

saga30311
02-26-2003, 11:18 AM
Alas1119 wrote:

I'm not really talking about the Nation of Islam either (which I don't consider to be true Islam).

I've heard a lot of people say statements similar to this one. I always wondered what they mean by true or real Islam?

I'm not Islamic, but I've studied a little & heard Islamic friends say that the NOI is more of a political/cultural ideology, than true Islam. They don't necessarily agree with some of the teachings of the NOI (the idea that the white man is the devil comes to mind...). True Islam embraces people of various ethnicities, cultures and philosophies - even accepts some of the theories of Judao-christian teachings because it teaches that those books are the word of G'd that preceded the Qur'an, although man's interpretation of them varies....

Twistie74
02-26-2003, 03:16 PM
I think the NOI is very appealing because it is a religion that speaks to black folks specifically. I wonder what percentage of AAs are Sunni muslims?

I've wondered about that as well as which percentage are Shia muslims.

lovinblackness
02-26-2003, 03:42 PM
I think the NOI is very appealing because it is a religion that speaks to black folks specifically. I wonder what percentage of AAs are Sunni muslims?

I've wondered about that as well as which percentage are Shia muslims.

I don't think most of those census' actually count NOI in the statistics ofAf. Americans who are Muslim. The NOI assertion that Fard M. was God in the Flesh and that Elijah M. was a prophet is a direct contradiction with the foundation of Islam. What makes someone a Muslim is the declaration that there is No God but Allah w/o partner and that Muhammad (the one born in arabia over 1400 years ago) is was his last Prophet. Anything that contradicts that throws you out of the pale of Islam. Its like claiming to be a christian and rejecting the existance of Jesus.

As far as shi'a. Shi'a only make up about 15% of the entire Muslim world. I always joke that there are about 10 Af. American shia and I know all of them. Really, the number of Af. American shia is growing (I now know of two shia masjids that are majority Af. American with Af. Americans sheikhs who were educated in shia religious schools thats a really big deal for us because we have been so small in number), but we are a teeny percentage of Muslims.

LotsOfLocs
02-26-2003, 04:03 PM
I agree with Afrikankween.

I was exposed to a variety of religous beliefs, Christian, Buddhist, Islam, Jainism, Hinduism, etc. as a child. I was never baptized. My parents believed that a child should pick their own religion. So as a child I was always reading my parents library, just studying. My father had nationalistic beliefs. At the time of my birth Islam was big in our family. Therefore, my first three names are Arabic. I now dont adhere to any Muslim beliefs though. But I do find myself from time to time referring to god as Allah. The 5 % religion attracts many Blacks because it speaks directly to them. It Also speaks of a lot of traditional African beliefs(Cosmology and divinity in oneself) instilling cultural pride. I would just like to see the day when more Blacks are open to their own traditional African beliefs. I really get sick of Blacks being taking advantage of by others for political reasons.

Twistie74
02-26-2003, 05:59 PM
I was exposed to a variety of religous beliefs, Christian, Buddhist, Islam, Jainism, Hinduism, etc. as a child. I was never baptized. My parents believed that a child should pick their own religion.

That is so interesting!

starchild
02-26-2003, 08:43 PM
umm. I think that some people go to islam because of what someone posted earlier about rejecting christianity. for that reason only, i don't see the difference in islam( not including noi) and christianity. Some people have accepted islam cause christianity is white man's religion, well, Arabs enslaved africans as well in addition, you would have to pray in a foreign tongue. So i don't understand that ideology. I agree with Lots that if for that reason we leave christianity than it would be natural for us to pick up an traditional african religion. I respect Islam and i am starting to learn about the real islam. Learning about mohammed and all cause christanity depicts him as being an murder and no good and completely confused.

I was watching this special from K.C Price and he was saying to the affect that Allah, was the moon god that the Arab people were worshipping before him and that is the reason why the cresent moon is on mosque and is currently a symbol for islam. He also claims that for that reason, Allah is not Jehovah, God of Abraham. They are truly worshipping the Moon God their day. ALso, he said the original transcript of the Koran( don't know how to spell it properly) was burned and re-written.

Just a lil thought

lovinblackness
02-26-2003, 08:58 PM
I was watching this special from K.C Price and he was saying to the affect that Allah, was the moon god that the Arab people were worshipping before him and that is the reason why the cresent moon is on mosque and is currently a symbol for islam. He also claims that for that reason, Allah is not Jehovah, God of Abraham. They are truly worshipping the Moon God their day. ALso, he said the original transcript of the Koran( don't know how to spell it properly) was burned and re-written.

Just a lil thought

Just a lil bull exrement. Actually the crecent moon symbol didn't come about until centuries after Islam was founded. It is a turkish symbol and the symbol of the Ottoman empire which ruled most of the middle east and a great deal of the Islamic world. This is one of one of the many lies that christians tell in order to discredit islam but even a 20 minute study into history will debunk this stuff.

deecoily
02-27-2003, 02:09 AM
I was just thinking about this last night. There's a wave here in Australia where young Aboriginal people and native islanders are converting to Islam and turning their backs on their own traditional Aboriginal beliefs, ceremonies and language.

Nothing against Islam per se but I think it's sad that we are losing yet another beautiful traditional BLACK religion and belief system for something that is trendy at the moment: converting.

I blame the influence of Christianity for sparking this - because this is seen as a slap in the face to the Christians who committed genocide and persecuted these people.

I just hope it passes and the Aboriginal people here realize there is validity and truth and beauty in their OWN beliefs. And that those beliefs are worth saving for future generations.

lovinblackness
02-27-2003, 02:49 PM
I was just thinking about this last night. There's a wave here in Australia where young Aboriginal people and native islanders are converting to Islam and turning their backs on their own traditional Aboriginal beliefs, ceremonies and language.

I blame the influence of Christianity for sparking this - because this is seen as a slap in the face to the Christians who committed genocide and persecuted these people.

I just hope it passes and the Aboriginal people here realize there is validity and truth and beauty in their OWN beliefs. And that those beliefs are worth saving for future generations.

If this can simply be boiled down to a rejection of Christianity then why are they not rejecting christianity for their own native beliefs? Not everyone who converts to Islam does so as rebellion. If that were the case a far greater number of people would leave. I was actually referencing the NOI when I made that comment, because most people you speak with here who come to Islam and then leave were either followers of NOI philosophy or the stifiling oppressive wahhabism that, unfortunately, has also become popular amongst af. americans.

Also why would you think that they are rejecting their own language because of Islam? There are one billion Muslims in the world who represent cultures and traditions that vary as much as the continents and cultures that they are from. If you travel the Islamic world, whether through airplanes or even books you will find as much diversity in food, language, dress, ways of practicing the religion etc as you will find in the non-muslim world.

Islam as it is practiced in the Phillipines is quite different than how it is lived in Iran which varies greatly from its practice in Senegal etc. and each of these peoples have maintained their native languages and many of their native traditions that preceded Islam. Iran's biggest festival is Nu Roz which can be traced back to ancient Zoroastrianism. Islam does not demand arabization, indeed arabs and their culture are a minority amongst us.

lovinblackness
02-27-2003, 02:56 PM
I was watching this special from K.C Price and he was saying to the affect that Allah, was the moon god that the Arab people were worshipping before him and that is the reason why the cresent moon is on mosque and is currently a symbol for islam. He also claims that for that reason, Allah is not Jehovah, God of Abraham. They are truly worshipping the Moon God their day. ALso, he said the original transcript of the Koran( don't know how to spell it properly) was burned and re-written.

Just a lil thought

I also wanted to add that Allah is the arabic word for God. If you go to a christian church service anywhere in the Arab world, whose name will you hear repeated? Allah. Just like if you go to church in the spanish world you will hear Dios or in Iran Khudaa. How ignorant and anglo-centric to assume that everyone in the world would refer to the divine by the English word God. :roll:

Kalico
02-27-2003, 03:41 PM
I was exposed to a variety of religous beliefs, Christian, Buddhist, Islam, Jainism, Hinduism, etc. as a child. I was never baptized. My parents believed that a child should pick their own religion.

That is so interesting!

I had a similar experience. I grew up around people of all different religions. My sibs and I were never baptized. And here's the twist - my father was a Christian minister at the time. What I like about Islam is hijab. When it isn't twisted by people like the taliban, I think its a system that is respectful of women. I think that the western tradition of christianity really throws women to the wolves so to speak. What keeps me away from Islam is jihad. I don't forget that Arab Muslims wreaked a lot of havoc in Africa before and even after the Europeans joined in on the action. They were major slave traders. And they are still ravaging black people in Sudan.

spacetygrss
02-27-2003, 06:37 PM
[ What I like about Islam is hijab. When it isn't twisted by people like the taliban, I think its a system that is respectful of women. I think that the western tradition of christianity really throws women to the wolves so to speak. .

There are headcoverings for Christian women. Some Christian women always wear them, some wear them only at church or when praying, and some, of course, don't wear them at all. I actually know of businesses that sell them specifically for Christian women. I can send you a link if you like.

amalah9
02-27-2003, 11:00 PM
lovinblackness wrote:

I also wanted to add that Allah is the arabic word for God. If you go to a christian church service anywhere in the Arab world, whose name will you hear repeated? Allah. Just like if you go to church in the spanish world you will hear Dios or in Iran Khudaa. How ignorant and anglo-centric to assume that everyone in the world would refer to the divine by the English word God.

Very good point.

Kalico
02-28-2003, 03:42 AM
[ What I like about Islam is hijab. When it isn't twisted by people like the taliban, I think its a system that is respectful of women. I think that the western tradition of christianity really throws women to the wolves so to speak. .

There are headcoverings for Christian women. Some Christian women always wear them, some wear them only at church or when praying, and some, of course, don't wear them at all. I actually know of businesses that sell them specifically for Christian women. I can send you a link if you like.

I know, but the muslim ones look much better to me. I even like the way different groups of women interpret hijab in different parts of the world. I'm not shallow enough to convert for the outfits though.

LBellatrix
03-02-2003, 04:47 PM
I know, but the muslim ones look much better to me. I even like the way different groups of women interpret hijab in different parts of the world. I'm not shallow enough to convert for the outfits though.

LOL...I hear you, girl...

Related to the thread about hijab...I appreciate why some Muslim women choose to wear it, AND I too like how it's interpreted in different cultures BUT my understanding is that it's not something that is REQUIRED in order to be considered a devout Muslim. I expect it's required in the mosque, but it's not necessarily required outside of it.

(Lovinblackness, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about this or anything else in this post. :) )

One difference between Christianity and Islam is that in Islam, there are no pictorial representations or human images of God. I've always considered that a good thing, not only because you skirt the whole anthropomorphization process, but because you're allowed to contemplate God in whatever way YOU see fit.

One of the reasons why I think some blacks rejected and continue to reject Christianity is the historical tendency to depict God and Jesus as white/European, never mind what the Bible says about "lamb's wool" and "bronze feet." Only those fortunate enough to have grown up in an atmosphere that was both Christian and Afrocentric might have been able to envision Jesus as something other than a non-black man; for the rest of us, even those of us who aren't Christian, it's kind of hard to get that image out of your head if that's what you were raised with. Combine that with the antagonism towards all things white/European and it seems pretty natural to want to find something else that works for you.

Look at the options: Judaism? No, they're white too. :lol: Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism, Shinto, and other Eastern religions? Nah...too foreign. What's left? Islam, worshipped by millions of COLORED FOLK (that is, folks that are colored AND look something like us) throughout the world. That's one of the reasons why Elijah Muhammad called Islam "the black man's religion," although he perverted it into a different form (the NOI).

(ETA: I am IN NO WAY knocking those who are black and have chosen Judaism, Buddhism, or another religion or philosophy for their spiritual path. I know one AA Jew and several AA Buddhists. I'm simply trying to give my opinion on why there evolved an NOI in the 20th Century and not, say, an NOJ or an NOB.)

One of the many things I've found interesting about Islam and its history and spread is that, unlike Christian explorers/invaders, Islamic invaders did not always FORCE people to convert to Islam. In fact, in what we now know as the Middle East (specifically Israel/Jordan/Syria), Jews and Christians lived right alongside Muslims in peace.

I don't see Islam's numbers shrinking any time soon; in fact, as was said before, they will probably increase throughout the West. My only fear is in seeing the fundamentalists take over, the way they have in Saudi Arabia (the Wahhabi sect) and the way they're trying to in Nigeria. Fundamentalism is bad IMHO, no matter WHAT religion it appears in. Human rights somehow seem to disappear in its wake.

Midoria
03-03-2003, 12:24 AM
LB,

I PM'd you.

spacetygrss
03-03-2003, 01:32 AM
[
I know, but the muslim ones look much better to me. I even like the way different groups of women interpret hijab in different parts of the world. I'm not shallow enough to convert for the outfits though.

We must be thinking of different things. The one's that I was referring to look just like the Hijab that Muslim's wear.(not those things that the Amish wear! LOL).

Peace

lovinblackness
03-03-2003, 02:34 AM
[
I know, but the muslim ones look much better to me. I even like the way different groups of women interpret hijab in different parts of the world. I'm not shallow enough to convert for the outfits though.

We must be thinking of different things. The one's that I was referring to look just like the Hijab that Muslim's wear.(not those things that the Amish wear! LOL).

Peace

Really? I've done a lot of searches on 'headcovering christian' websites and there was a lot of emphasis on snoods (the type the amish wear) and such. The chrisitans are usually very interested in differentiating the type of headcovering the wear from Muslims. With the occasional exception of some older Greek or Orthodox Russian christian women I've never seen Christian headcoverings that resemble any of the gazillion :wink: kinds of covering muslim women wear.

spacetygrss
03-03-2003, 02:37 AM
[
I know, but the muslim ones look much better to me. I even like the way different groups of women interpret hijab in different parts of the world. I'm not shallow enough to convert for the outfits though.

We must be thinking of different things. The one's that I was referring to look just like the Hijab that Muslim's wear.(not those things that the Amish wear! LOL).

Peace

Really? I've done a lot of searches on 'headcovering christian' websites and there was a lot of emphasis on snoods (the type the amish wear) and such. The chrisitans are usually very interested in differentiating the type of headcovering the wear from Muslims. With the occasional exception of some older Greek or Orthodox Russian christian women I've never seen Christian headcoverings that resemble any of the gazillion :wink: kinds of covering muslim women wear.

Yeah, most of the websites do refer to those Amsih-type coverings, but I PERSONALLY know some Christian women who wear the hijab-type headcoverings. They also (coincidently?) happen to be black Christians. If I were to wear a headcovering I would most definitely be wearing the hijab type one.

Takbir
03-30-2003, 02:24 AM
Some people have accepted islam cause christianity is white man's religion, well, Arabs enslaved africans as well in addition, you would have to pray in a foreign tongue. So i don't understand that ideologyt

As-Salamu Alaikum,

The industry of slavery was never as sever as the slavery in the U. S. Never in the history of slavery, except in America, has a race of people lost their religion, language, history and culture. So the slavery of the africans in America cannot be compared to any other slavery past or present.

Takbir

Takbir
03-30-2003, 02:30 AM
. I don't forget that Arab Muslims wreaked a lot of havoc in Africa before and even after the Europeans joined in on the action. They were major slave traders. And they are still ravaging black people in Sudan.

I repeat slavery in any other form outside of the Slavery brought about by the whites in america different and cannot be compared. As African americans we lost out whole identity our language, our culture and our history. This form of slavery has never been duplicated.

takbir

afrikankween
03-30-2003, 02:36 AM
Some people have accepted islam cause christianity is white man's religion, well, Arabs enslaved africans as well in addition, you would have to pray in a foreign tongue. So i don't understand that ideologyt

As-Salamu Alaikum,

The industry of slavery was never as sever as the slavery in the U. S. Never in the history of slavery, except in America, has a race of people lost their religion, language, history and culture. So the slavery of the africans in America cannot be compared to any other slavery past or present.

Takbir
its not only about slavery, but colonialism as well as caused many afrikans to lose their identity.

Takbir
03-30-2003, 02:46 AM
What keeps me away from Islam is jihad. .

As Salaam,

If jihad keeps you away from islam. Then crusades should keep you away from christianity. A crusade is the equivallent of a jihad and weren't the christians also crusaders. Didn't the Christians have a holy war or crusade?

The people in other countries that are fighting a jihad are fighting because they are feeling the same oppression that we african americans felt in this country when we were first brought here. Their thinking is oppression is worst than death.

Takbir

marissasensei
03-30-2003, 03:41 AM
This is a timely subject for me, since I just finished taking a class on Islam & the Law. Going in, I knew next to nothing about the religion, and I left wiith a deep respect for it. What appealed to me most were the egalitarian aspects, as well as the emphasis on discipline and humility. Although I'm a Christian, I find that many of these virtues (and the way they are expressed in the Qur'an) speak to me in a way that the Bible sometimes does not. I'm not shopping for a religion, but I can definitely see the appeal of Islam.

On a side note, are there any NOI members here? I've always wondered about why people choose to become members of the NOI vs. Sunni or Shiite Muslims.

gemma03
03-31-2003, 01:24 AM
Mohammed and other Muslims always killed people of other faiths if they did not convert. That is one of the reasons why they still hold such a strong hold in N. Africa today.
Catholics killed people too.
Jesus' teachings and purpose is as plain as day and that is why Mohammed came at the age of 40(in the 630's), when Christianity was well known.
Any person Jew, Muslim, or Mormon for that factor misses the whole point of God if they do not accept Jesus as their savior(and no Jesus was not white, he was a Jew and he came out of Africa, don't let anyone fool you).
All religions do not lead to God and Heaven.
I urge everyone to look past the labels and read the Bible for themselves.
I am a Christian(if it is not obvious) and I think the Hijab is cool(I would wear it) but did you know that women are not allowed to have their own copy of the Quran or read it for themselves.
A good book is The Story Of Christianity by Gonzalez.
Jesus does not care what color we are, he died for all of us.

lovinblackness
03-31-2003, 02:57 AM
Mohammed and other Muslims always killed people of other faiths if they did not convert. That is one of the reasons why they still hold such a strong hold in N. Africa today.
Catholics killed people too.
Jesus' teachings and purpose is as plain as day and that is why Mohammed came at the age of 40(in the 630's), when Christianity was well known.
Any person Jew, Muslim, or Mormon for that factor misses the whole point of God if they do not accept Jesus as their savior(and no Jesus was not white, he was a Jew and he came out of Africa, don't let anyone fool you).
All religions do not lead to God and Heaven.
I urge everyone to look past the labels and read the Bible for themselves.
I am a Christian(if it is not obvious) and I think the Hijab is cool(I would wear it) but did you know that women are not allowed to have their own copy of the Quran or read it for themselves.
A good book is The Story Of Christianity by Gonzalez.
Jesus does not care what color we are, he died for all of us.

Girlfriend you really do need to check your sources. Where in the world did you learn this insanity? Women are not allowed to have their own copy of the qur'an or read it? You know I have been a Muslim for over 12 years and have come into contact with hundreds of Muslim women and all of them owned and read copies of the qur'an. There is NOTHING in Islam that says anything of the sort. Can you please quote some sources from ISLAMIC texts that state such things??? I'm not even going to touch that craziness about Pr. Muhammad :roll:

lovinblackness
03-31-2003, 03:03 AM
What keeps me away from Islam is jihad. .

As Salaam,

If jihad keeps you away from islam. Then crusades should keep you away from christianity. A crusade is the equivallent of a jihad and weren't the christians also crusaders. Didn't the Christians have a holy war or crusade?

The people in other countries that are fighting a jihad are fighting because they are feeling the same oppression that we african americans felt in this country when we were first brought here. Their thinking is oppression is worst than death.

Takbir

Although I understand the point that you are trying to make I must disagree that jihad is the equivalent of a crusade. The crusades were a specific attempt by christians to obtain control of the holy land from its Muslim and Jewish inhabitants. In the end you either left you religion and converted to christianity or your life was not worth a plug nickel. The purpose of jihad is never to convert anyone to Islam, but rather to free yourself from oppression or as an act of self defense. Jihad also has very specific rules about when it can be used and how it is to be carried out. Although sadly very few Muslims who claim to be undergoing jihad pay attention to those rules. Then again, if Saddam the Atheist can proclaim a jihad then....

Also there are two types of jihad. The Jihad Al Akbar, or greater jihad is the struggle of the individual to subdue the ego and the desires of the lower self to the will of God. It is a constant struggle to act according to a higher moral plane then 'what is good for me' and even to realize the interconnectedness of all creation and act in that best interest. The Jihad Asghar or lesser jihad is the struggle in defense of yourself, your family or your land.

Midoria
03-31-2003, 10:58 AM
Mohammed and other Muslims always killed people of other faiths if they did not convert. That is one of the reasons why they still hold such a strong hold in N. Africa today.
Catholics killed people too.
Jesus' teachings and purpose is as plain as day and that is why Mohammed came at the age of 40(in the 630's), when Christianity was well known.
Any person Jew, Muslim, or Mormon for that factor misses the whole point of God if they do not accept Jesus as their savior(and no Jesus was not white, he was a Jew and he came out of Africa, don't let anyone fool you).
All religions do not lead to God and Heaven.
I urge everyone to look past the labels and read the Bible for themselves.
I am a Christian(if it is not obvious) and I think the Hijab is cool(I would wear it) but did you know that women are not allowed to have their own copy of the Quran or read it for themselves.
A good book is The Story Of Christianity by Gonzalez.
Jesus does not care what color we are, he died for all of us.



Oh, no. Here we go. :roll:

However, I am cracking up about the Qur'an part. That is complete *ish*. the last time I told a Muslim male that I owned a copy he got excited and wanted to know what I thought.

As a general note: I can't stand when people only read books that agree with their misconceptions, personal beliefs, and prejudices. If you truly want to be educated on a subject then you will read all points of view. Take the Salafi woman I am friends with. Her husband owns every holy book there is and has read them. He reads extremist works along with moderate ones. He pisses people off because he is well prepared to argue/debate whenever they are. :lol:

You can read until your eyes, bleed. But if you're not getting a diverse opinion then you will always be ignorant. And trust me, TRULY educated people can pick on that in a heartbeat.

Safiyyah
03-31-2003, 05:53 PM
Any person Jew, Muslim, or Mormon for that factor misses the whole point of God if they do not accept Jesus as their savior(and no Jesus was not white, he was a Jew and he came out of Africa, don't let anyone fool you).
All religions do not lead to God and Heaven. ......
Jesus does not care what color we are, he died for all of us.

I had to comment.. I couldn't leave it alone. No NO NO! I was raised christian under these exact same ... lies (because that is what thay are) The thing which attracted me to islam was tawheed (the oneness of Allah) and death, because christianity could not explain it to my satisfaction. So I have missed the whole point now? Find me a quote in that bible of your where Jeses himself (so it needs to be a direct quote from jesus) that you need to be saved by him, and that he is the saviour... or that he is the son of God. Oh wait! I cant tell you it doesnt exist. ]

And if I do not accept jesus as "Lord and saviour" I am not entering heaven? If hell is the grave (according to some christians) How can God (Who is jesus at the same time) go to hell? shouldn't he be above that? and if everything needs God in order to sustain it, who was taking care of the affairs of the universe while god was in hell/dead? And how can god need food, like me.. and go to the toilet like me, and need to sleep like me? if he made me and all the universe.... surely he should be better than that. And how can god be born like me? he has a mother (i,e mary)?

And jesus died on the cross to save me from my sins? How can one marry be accountable for the whole worlds sins? shouldn't you pay for what you do.. why is it on his neck? So the robber and the murderer... as long as they believe in Jesus are saved? Where is the justice in this.(On the flipside in Islam true repentance is being scincere about it, and not commit the sin again)

Safiyyah
03-31-2003, 06:16 PM
DEE I noticed you were wondering why the aborigines have left their culture.

I think they chose to because islam allows you to keep your culture, except those parts of it which go against islam. Mind you, after reading the Qur'an and becoming muslim, culture is the least in your priority and you are now obsessed with something else.

And people do not convert to islam because it is a trend. This is the one thing which simply isnt true. It is FAR more work. why would you do more work for a trend? choose to be ostrosized by friends and family for a trend too? ( a lot of reverts are thrown out by their familys and their friends no longer want to know) .... I think this is taking on too much for a trend.

Papillion
03-31-2003, 10:25 PM
What keeps me away from Islam is jihad. .Then crusades should keep you away from christianity. A crusade is the equivallent of a jihad and weren't the christians also crusaders. Didn't the Christians have a holy war or crusade?

Takbir

A Crusade was an equivalent of a jihad back when there were Crusaders/ Crusades in the Middle Ages. The idea of Crusade is not practiced by Christians today (in modern times), however jihad is.[/b]

Papillion
03-31-2003, 10:47 PM
I was always drawn to Islam, however, there is the issue of racism and slavery for indigeneous African populations. Whereas I had felt Islam was the one true religion of Black people, I have since changed my mind.

Virtually all religions have participated in some form of slavery, but that this practice still exists today boggles the mind:

http://www.fsbassociates.com/fsg/islam.htm

http://members.aol.com/casmasalc/aboutcasmas.html

http://www.lnsart.com/Sudan%20Slave%20Story.htm

http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/africa/sudan1.htm

And there's a good article in National Geographic a few months back that included info about the Sudan and the Islamic slave raids. It was heartbreaking. Black Africans, once embracing Islam become 'civilized Arabs', which is a thinly velied way of saying they were closer to white than the savage, animalistic other Black Africans who continued to practice their indigenous religions.

And don't get me started on the racism of North Africa (Arab), who are considered white vs. Sub-Saharan Black Africans.

There are many, many links out there of information. No religion is innocent, whether Christianity or Islam or any other religion that comes into an indigenous population, whether in Africa, Australia or any other native population and completely obliterates the tribal religions and cultures under the guise of 'bringing civilization'.

Yes, I am leery of all religions.

Takbir
04-01-2003, 12:20 AM
Although I understand the point that you are trying to make I must disagree that jihad is the equivalent of a crusade.[/quote]

I am not saying they are equivalent. I am saying the basic point is if the only thing keeping you from understanding Islam is Jihad you need to first understand the history of your own religion. To get into detail about jihad is futile if you can't understand the oneness of Allah.

T

Midoria
04-07-2003, 05:08 AM
I was always drawn to Islam, however, there is the issue of racism and slavery for indigeneous African populations. Whereas I had felt Islam was the one true religion of Black people, I have since changed my mind.

Virtually all religions have participated in some form of slavery, but that this practice still exists today boggles the mind:

http://www.fsbassociates.com/fsg/islam.htm

http://members.aol.com/casmasalc/aboutcasmas.html

http://www.lnsart.com/Sudan%20Slave%20Story.htm

http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/africa/sudan1.htm

And there's a good article in National Geographic a few months back that included info about the Sudan and the Islamic slave raids. It was heartbreaking. Black Africans, once embracing Islam become 'civilized Arabs', which is a thinly velied way of saying they were closer to white than the savage, animalistic other Black Africans who continued to practice their indigenous religions.

And don't get me started on the racism of North Africa (Arab), who are considered white vs. Sub-Saharan Black Africans.

There are many, many links out there of information. No religion is innocent, whether Christianity or Islam or any other religion that comes into an indigenous population, whether in Africa, Australia or any other native population and completely obliterates the tribal religions and cultures under the guise of 'bringing civilization'.

Yes, I am leery of all religions.



Sounds like you have an issue with the people that follow the religion, not the religion itself. People are actually surprised when I tell them I don't like Christianity. They don't think that I mean that actual beliefs system, but I do. I guess folks are shocked that I'm not ashamed to say that I think that Christianity was an accident. Unlike Islam and Judaism.

I think Islam is a good religion for Blacks for two reason:

1. They do not worship any man (or God in man's form). Therefore little Black children do not have to think they are praying to a White man to save their souls. And the race of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is irrelevant because he was just the messenger. God worked through him, but he is not God (a la Jesus).

2. Islam is not segregated like Christianity. I have yet to see a mosque that is all-Black or all-Arab. Migration, birth, and immigration may cause influxes, but that's different.

brwnsuga7310
04-14-2003, 05:54 AM
Saffiyah wrote:

I had to comment.. I couldn't leave it alone. No NO NO! I was raised christian under these exact same ... lies (because that is what thay are) The thing which attracted me to islam was tawheed (the oneness of Allah) and death, because christianity could not explain it to my satisfaction. So I have missed the whole point now? Find me a quote in that bible of your where Jeses himself (so it needs to be a direct quote from jesus) that you need to be saved by him, and that he is the saviour... or that he is the son of God. Oh wait! I cant tell you it doesnt exist. ]


There are several quotes in the Bible where Jesus himself attests to these things, so perhaps you did miss it. I'll post a few here. As it is in my Bible, the words of Christ are in red.

Jesus is the Son of God
They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?" He replied, "You are right in saying I am." Luke 22:70

Others were able to discern this as well:
"But what about you,", Mathew 16:15-17

Even evil spirits knew who he was:
When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees before him. He shouted on the top of his voice. "What do you want from me, Jesus Son of the Most High God? Swear to God that you won't torture me!" For Jesus had said to him, "Come out of this man, you evil spirit!", Mark 5:6-8

God himself proclaimed that Jesus was his Son:
Mathew 3:16-17: As soon as Jesus was baptized he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."
Mathew 17:5; While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!"

Jesus is the Savior
There are numerous passages in the Bible that attests that Jesus is the savior, that he came to earth to be a sacrifice for the remission of all the sins that we have, and ever will commit, there are too many to post, but here are a few:
John 1:29: The next day John [the Baptist] saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world." Now, to put this in context, John the Batist said this to a bunch of Hebrews he was baptizing. Before Jesus came, the only way the Hebrews could make atonement of sins was to offer a blood sactifice to God (usually a lamb), and this atonement had to be done once a year, with Jesus being the lamb of God the atonement has been done forever.

But what did Jesus say about this? Let's look at perhaps the most famous verse in the bible. John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believe in him shall never perish but have eternal life"
What does this mean? It means that you must believe in him to partake of his sacrifice and therefore recive forgiveness of your sins.
"I told you that you will die in your sins; if you do not believe I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins." (John 8:51) This death and dying he is referring to is not a physical death, he is referred to spending eternity separated from God.
Why? Simply put, because of sin.
The Bible tells us (sorry I don't have citations for some quotes) that sin separates us from God, and the apostle Paul wrote that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. The Bible also tells us that the wages for sin is death. It makes it very clear that any and all sin is an abomination in the face of God, as he is holy and we are very corruptible. Jesus said "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin."(Mark 10:45).
Simply put, God punished Jesus for our sin, so he would not have to punish us, and separate us from himself forever. It shows the height of unsurpassable love for us, and the mercy and grace he has towards us.

Jesus' prayer just before he is arrested to be crucified:
"Father the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given to him. Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the one true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you sent. I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." (John 17:1-5).

Midoria
04-14-2003, 04:30 PM
Saffiyah wrote:
[quote]I had to comment.. I couldn't leave it alone. No NO NO! I was raised christian under these exact same ... lies (because that is what thay are) The thing which attracted me to islam was tawheed (the oneness of Allah) and death, because christianity could not explain it to my satisfaction. So I have missed the whole point now? Find me a quote in that bible of your where Jeses himself (so it needs to be a direct quote from jesus) that you need to be saved by him, and that he is the saviour... or that he is the son of God. Oh wait! I cant tell you it doesnt exist. ]


There are several quotes in the Bible where Jesus himself attests to these things, so perhaps you did miss it. I'll post a few here. As it is in my Bible, the words of Christ are in red.

Jesus is the Son of God
They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?" He replied, "You are right in saying I am." Luke 22:70

Others were able to discern this as well:
"But what about you,"


That still doesn't prove anything. The Bible is polluted because it is not a protected text. Just beause the Bible "tells" you something doesn't mean that it is true. The Bible has versions and it was written by a slew of different people who were giving testimony and opinion! And it is well know that there are books MISSING! What is that all about? And what did they say that made someone remove them ('Stigmata' anyone)? Most people know that when the Bible was translated into different languages, certain words were changed. How do you know that's what Jesus really said??? For we know it could have been:

"And a voice from heaven said, "This is my servent, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

or

""But what about you," Simon Peter answered, "You are the Jesus, the Servent of the Living God."


Fact still remains that many Christians don't understand the trinity. And when they get stuck they say "have faith". I've yet to meet a Jew or Muslim that is confused about a basic belief in their religion.

Midoria
04-14-2003, 04:50 PM
"Only one religion - Islam - had the power to stand and fight the white man's Christianity for a thousand years. Only Islam could keep white Christianity at bay.* The colour-blindness of the Muslim world's religious society and the colour-blindness of the Muslim world's human society: these two influences had each day been making a greater impact, and an increasing persuasion against my previous way of thinking."

El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz

*As a note Malcolm was talking about the perverted idea of Christianity that Black people adopted during slavery

brwnsuga7310
04-18-2003, 05:56 AM
That still doesn't prove anything. The Bible is polluted because it is not a protected text. Just beause the Bible "tells" you something doesn't mean that it is true. The Bible has versions and it was written by a slew of different people who were giving testimony and opinion! And it is well know that there are books MISSING! What is that all about? And what did they say that made someone remove them ('Stigmata' anyone)? Most people know that when the Bible was translated into different languages, certain words were changed. How do you know that's what Jesus really said???

That’s a very well worn argument that you make, that has not been substantiated. There have been many scholars, researchers, etc, who are far more knowledgeable and articulate than I who have debunked all allegations that the Bible had been corrupted or otherwise details fictional events. The examples are numerous, that range from archeological evidence that confirms events detailed in the Bible that people said did not exist, for example, historians scoffed at the Bible’s story of the destruction of the ancient city of Ninevah…until the ruins of that city was discovered. Another example, critics said no such place as Sela, the rock fortress (the capital of Seir, home of Esau and the Edomites), never existed. From shortly after the time of Jesus until the early 1800s, no one except wandering Arab tribes knew where it was. Then Anglo-Swiss explorer Johann L. Burckhardt risked his very life by disguising himself as an Arab in 1812 and was taken into a hidden valley to a huge rock fortress with only one narrow way in or out. Once again, the Bible was shown to be more accurate than secular history. Today, we know this place as Petra. Just two of many examples of how theories of Bible detractors have been debunked. And let me not neglect the extra-Biblical references of the life of Jesus. You seem to think that he never said that he was the Son of God, that someone could have changed it later on. But how could that be so, when there are historical accounts that say that there was a man, Jesus, claiming to be the Christ, was killed by the Romans, and there arose a “superstition” about his death, and his followers were known as Christians, who were then persecuted by the Romans. The most well known of these ancient historians was a man named Josephus, who was a non-believer who lived in the 1st or 2nd century. If Jesus never said he was the Christ, the Son of God, then why would history record that he was killed because he made such claims? In addition, the Discovery channel has a two hour documentary about Jesus. They do not focus on the theological implications of his life and mission, but they reveal historical and archeological evidence, proof upon proof upon proof, of the life and ministry of Jesus Christ, who they referred to as the “historical Jesus.” This program usually airs around Christmastime, so come December watch it if you care, or if you dare.

And then the other supposition, that the Bible has been purposely altered somehow, again I say that that allegation has been unsubstantiated…Just look at the Dead Sea Scrolls, which were discovered in the 1940’s and 50’s. These texts contain sections of the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) and other documents, and have been authenticated (carbon dating etc.) to come from the time of the 3rd century BC to 68 AD. These texts are at least one thousand years older than any other surviving Hebrew text, and when they compare what is in the Dead Sea Scrolls with what is in the Bible, there are no contradictions! If there were any rampant and systematic corruptions of the text, don’t you think we should see some that happened in the 2000 years these scrolls were buried out in some caves somewhere. And then there is the question of the New Testament, which I’ve already gone on too long here, but let’s consider the work of this guy named Ian Wilson, who conducted extensive study in the attempt to prove that Jesus is not the Son of God, and performed miracles, etc (wrote the book Jesus: The Evidence). This man does not believe in anything supernatural, and dismisses any type of spiritual believe that involves God. And I am sure that he was very motivated to find systematic corruption in the Bible; however, after his extensive study of the texts was forced to conclude grudgingly, in reference the New Testament, “But on the whole, errors and textual variations are relatively minor, and the canonical gospels can be judged to be very much as their authors wrote them.” And given this person’s prejudices, I would say that the situation is actually better than that.

There are many more examples attesting to the truths found in the Bible, some I’m sure I’ve never heard of. But I don’t think I’m going to engage in this kind of debate anymore (generally speaking) because eventually it boils down into an argument that goes something like…Argument: the Bible is false b/c of X. Answer: no, argument X is unsubstantiated because Y has been discovered. Argument: well then the Bible is false b/c of Z. Answer: No, Z is also unsubstantiated, because of A, B, & C have been proven. Argument: Well all those things in the Bible may be true, but anything in it that I disagree with, conflicts with my beliefs, makes me uncomfortable or feel threatened because of the way I live, act, or think, these things really false because I don’t like them….…

And another thing about your post that jumps out at me. I may be mistaken, and forgive me if I am, but it seems that you write about the Bible not “proving” anything, and you seem to discount the “faith” of your Christian friends. Well when it comes to spiritual and religious matters, can anything be proven to the point of satisfaction of the non-believer, especially when the non-believer in not motivated to even consider an alternate point of view. Doesn’t it always come down to faith? I mean it seems like you are a Muslim, or are about to become one, so how can you “prove” that God actually spoke to Mohammed. Maybe he was an ego-maniac and made it all up, maybe he was lonely and wanted attention, maybe it was actually satan speaking to him pretending to be God. (didn’t Salman Rushdie write something like this in the Satanic Verses, and the Ayatollah put a price on his head for blaspheming the prophet and more then 10 years after the fact this man is still in hiding?). Now mind you, I am NOT, I repeat, I am NOT saying these things are true, I am NOT alleging these things, but my question is, can you “prove” it? Doesn’t all boil down to faith, what it is that you believe in?

brwnsuga7310
04-18-2003, 05:59 AM
Fact still remains that many Christians don't understand the trinity. And when they get stuck they say "have faith".

It’s true that many Christians do not understand the Trinity, but it is not wrong for Christians to rely on faith if they do not all of the things of God. The Bible tells us to lean not on our own understanding. In addition, the apostle Paul wrote in I Corinthians 13 that “For now we know in part, and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes the imperfect disappears…Now we see but a poor reflection as in the mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am full known.” What he is saying that what we know, we only know part of it, and the things that we actually see are only reflections of ourselves. But when we the time comes and we are face to face with God, then all things will be revealed to us.

Anyway, back to the Trinity, I admit that I didn’t understand at first. A lady I know, a pastor’s wife, explained it this way. She said that it is a difficult concept to grasp because it attests to the nature of God. That he is an infinite being, and we are trying to comprehend him with our finite minds, and that people are confused is no mystery. Then it got me to thinking, if God presents himself this way to us, and one God who exists in the form of three distinct persons (father, son, and holy spirit) then who are we that we will ignore or reject that because we don’t understand. If this is what he says he is, who are we to dispute it, he is God, right? If this is how he presents himself, should we not accept that? Should we, being humans, be able to understand everything about God? Or are we free to recreate God into whatever image we like and what fits into our understanding of how things work?

But then I heard someone explain it in another way, and now I understand it (or at least I think I do). This person made a simple analogy…take the compound of H2O, it exists in three forms, ice, water, and steam, but it is still ONE compound. Each of these forms have distinct characteristics, but is still ONE compound. Just as God is ONE being, he exists in three forms that have distinct characteristics, he is still ONE God. Here’s another analogy, take a regular, everyday person, this person fulfills many different roles with very distinct characteristics. For example, a woman (let’s call her Kim) is a judge, a wife, and a mother. On the bench she is an arbiter of the law and bangs her gavel ruthlessly, with her husband she is a partner and lover, with her kids she is a nurturer and disciplinarian. Does she act like the same person on the bench, in bed with her husband, or rolling around on the floor with her kids? No. Does that mean that there are three Kims? No, there is one Kim expressing 3 distinct aspects of her personality. And if she is a human being expressing this, then how much more fully, completely, and infinitely can God express the very same thing? After all, he is still God, right? Couldn’t he do it this way if he wants to?

brwnsuga7310
04-18-2003, 06:04 AM
The Bible is polluted because it is not a protected text.

Not a protected text? What does this mean? Says who and why? What is there to back up this claim?

Well, anyway, I read this article where the author wrote about finding support for the Bible in the Qu’ran. Now I haven’t read the Qu’ran, so I don’t know whether or not this person has taken any of the quotes out of context, but can anyone dispute what she has written, using the scripture as reference.



JESUS/ISA (pbuh), the Mercy of God:
A Plea for Sanity, a Plea for True Change
By Ma RG
(September 20th, 2001 AD/Rajab 02, 1422 AH)
(Assalaamu’laikum wa Rahmatulaahi wa Barakaatuh)
The tragedy of the recent week is still fresh in our minds (The Attack on the World Trade Center NY), and all throughout the world people must deal with the fear and uncertainty of the coming weeks. The stark reality is the specter of death itself, and that anyone of us could have been one of those innocent victims on an airplane, at the office, regardless of race, creed, or color, our children, even me.
My prayer as I write this article is for true reconciliation and true understanding to be established between Muslims, Jews, and Christians for the future days ahead. One can only hope that a paradigm transformation can be born out of this time which will bring forth God/Allah’s SWT mercy and loving compassion in a fresh way.
Peace be upon us as we seek sanity in the midst of insanity. Peace be upon us as we seek to know better the One true God/Allah who is closer than the vein in our neck. Peace be unto us as we seek to know the Unity of the Spirit in the bond of Peace that passes all understanding and guards our hearts and minds.
God/Allah SWT desires that we seriously study these things, for He has the authority to put us in Heaven or sentence us to Hell, based on His justice. Though God/Allah SWT has inscribed the rule of Mercy as an attribute above all others being called Ar’ Rahmanir Rahim (the Most Merciful and Compassionate One), so He has warned us to watch and prepare at all times for the coming of death and the Kiamat (Day of Judgment). All men are appointed to die once and then face the Day in which we all must give an account to our Creator for the choices we have made or failed to make in our time on earth.
"Nay, Allah raised (rafa’a) him up (Jesus/Isa,pbuh) unto Himself; and Allah is exalted in Power, Wise.
"(Qu’ran (Al Nisa) 4:158).
According to both Muslims and Christians, Jesus/Isa (pbuh) is His "Sign unto men and a Mercy from us" Qu’ran 19 Maryam 19:21, …"whose Name is the Messiah, illustrious in this world and in the Hereafter." (Qu’ran 3 Al Imran 45), for Jesus/Isa is the UnCreated Word of God/Allah "…an Apostle (Rasul) of Allah, and His Word (Kalimatuhu), which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him (Ruhu minh)" (Qu’ran Al Nisa 4:171).
Why would Jesus/Isa (pbuh) alone be given by God/Allah SWT the title of Messiah (al-Masih), over eleven times in the Qu’ran? Why would Jesus/Isa (pbuh) alone then be given the title of His Word (Kalimatuhu)?
Jesus/Isa (pbuh) is further called "…a Word from Him (Kalimatim min hus)" (Qu’ran Ali Imran 3:45), and again "…a Word from Allah (Kalimatim minallaahi)" (Qu’ran Ali Imran 3:39).
"…(Jesus)Isa is Roh-ul-Lah (The Spirit of Allah), Rasullah (The Messenger of Allah) and Kalimatullah (the Word of Allah)." (Anas bin Malik hal: 72. Qs 4 An Nisaa’ 171).
As the Ahl al Kitab (People of the Book), Christians take every word God says seriously, and they have no need to exaggerate the greatness of the Messiah, for God/Allah SWT Himself lifts Jesus/Isa (pbuh) high above all other names!
The divine mission of Jesus/Isa (pbuh) has never ended, for Jesus/Isa is the UnCreated Word, the everLiving Messiah and Rasul, living Today. The Day of Judgment has been given into his hands alone by God/Allah SWT for ALL MANKIND!
When we pray, we ask God/Allah SWT, to "Show us the Straight Path" (Qu’ran 1 Al-Fatihah 6. Jesus/Isa (pbuh) is that Straight Path to be followed! "And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): Therefore have NO DOUBT about the (Hour) but follow ye Me: This is the Straight Way." (Qu’ran 43 Az Zukhrut 61).
In Surah 19:19, Jesus/Isa (pbuh) alone is called a Sinless One in all the Qu’ran!
He is called "holy" (zakiy-pure, sinless) son (Ghulam (youth or young man). Some Muslim scholars would argue that "zakiy ghulam" means that all infants born are sinless, hence attempting to resolve the problem of a "once in all history" birth of the Sinless Jesus, but this cannot hold up to a careful look. The word used here "Ghulam" meaning youth or young man is similar to that used in Surah 18:74 (a slain youth by Al Khidr), v.80 (rebellious youth), vs.82 (two orphans youth attaining their age of full strength to claim hidden treasure under the wall). To avoid confusion, another word "Tifl" meaning "little children or infants" as in Surah 22:5, 40:67 should have been used in Surah 19:19 if only those below the age of accountability is intended!
My friend, use the mind God/Allah SWT has given you! Why was Jesus/Isa (pbuh) protected from Satan? (Surah 3:36), and "Blessed (Mubarakan) wheresoever he be." (Surah 19:31)? Only Jesus/Isa (pbuh) is able to be in the Presence of God (Surah 4:158) after his ascension without being pulverized like the mountain when God appeared to Moses (Surah 7:143).
Truly, Moses (pbuh) pointed forward to Jesus/Isa as the UnCreated Word of God, the Messiah, the Sinless One, the everLiving One Today. Jesus/Isa (pbuh) was born of a virgin, "The Word became flesh" (Gospel/Injil John 1:14), and dwelt on earth as a once in all history Miracle working Man? Why?
Just as Moses (pbuh) pointed forward to Jesus/Isa (pbuh) in History, Muhammad (pbuh) pointed back in History to the "Center of All History and Judgment on All Mankind", for Muhammad was supposed to be only a Warner (Nazir), to Seal the Truth that Jesus/Isa is the Messiah, the UnCreated Word of God!
Jesus/Isa (pbuh) was sent by God/Allah SWT not just to the Jewish people, but rather to the Entire World in every Age of Mankind, for he is the Judge!
"All authority has been given to Me (Jesus/Isa) in heaven and on the earth, GO, therefore and make disciples of ALL NATIONS (ethnos/tribes and peoples including Arabs), baptizing them in the name of the Father (God/Allah SWT), the Son (the Kalimatuhu,UnCreated Word of God born Sinless of a virgin), and the Holy Spirit (Ruhuminh), teaching them to observe ALL THINGS whatever I have commanded you, and behold, I AM WITH YOU ALWAYS, even to the end of the age." (Gospel/Injil, Matthew 28: 18-20).
God/Allah’s Word is ETERNAL! He has an Eternal Plan for the Ages, "…that in the ages to come, He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness towards us through Jesus/Isa, the Messiah, …for God, who is rich in MERCY, made us alive with the Messiah, even when we were dead in sin, it is by grace you have been saved and God/Allah raised us up with the Messiah, and seated us with him in Heavenly Realms (present tense) in Jesus the Messiah." (Injil/Ephesians 2:4-7).
Therefore, since Jesus/Isa (pbuh) is more than just a Prophet, but rather the Eternal UnCreated Word of God/Allah SWT, his Position and Authority is Eternal as well! In the Taruat/Old Testament, the book of Isaiah (pbuh), we find the prophecy of Jesus/Isa (pbuh) written hundreds of years before both the Injil and the Qu’ran saying,
"Therefore, the Lord Himself shall give you a Sign, BEHOLD, A VIRGIN SHALL CONCEIVE AND BEAR A SON, AND SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL (meaning God/Allah SWT with us). (Taruat/ Isaiah 7:14). Then in the following chapters it speaks of this son saying, "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace, of the increase of his government and peace there shall be NO END!" (Taruat/ Isaiah 9:6,7).
Think of the implications of what the Word of God/Allah says, the Government that Jesus/Isa (pbuh) MUST increase and never, never, never, never, End.
In the Qu’ran, are you asked to OBEY any other than God/Allah SWT? To the One we OBEY, then He is Lord! In the Qu’ran, Jesus/Isa (pbuh) says, "(I have come to you) To attest the Law (Taruat) which was before me, and to make lawful to you part of what was (before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from the Lord, SO FEAR GOD/ALLAH and OBEY ME!" (Surah 3:50).
In Truth, who is the Last Prophet? If Jesus/Isa (pbuh) is the Eternal UnCreated Word of God, living Forever speaking for God/Allah, Judging in the Judgment upon ALL MANKIND, both Christian and Muslim, chronologically, who is Last?
You must have the courage to answer this between you and God/Allah SWT.
Jesus/Isa (pbuh) is not the forerunner preparing the way for Islam, for he is the UnCreated Word of God, "Jesus Christ (the Messiah, Anointed One), is the same yesterday, and today, and forever." (Injil/ Hebrews 13:8).
"And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: O Children of Israel I am the Apostle of Allah (sent) to you confirming the Law (which came/Taraut/Old Testament) before me, and giving glad tidings of an Apostle to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad" (Qu’ran, Surah 61:6).
Jesus/Isa (pbuh) was talking to Israelites in the context of Surah 61:6 of the coming Rasul named Ahmad who will also be sent to the Israelites. There is NO mention of the Ishmaelites, Arabs or Quraishites in Surah 61:6….AN ISRAELITE RASUL IS ANTICIPATED! The name Ahmad and not Muhammad was given. The meaning of both names are different and also antithetical-Ahmad means "one who gives praise" and Muhammad means "one who receives praise or praiseworthy"! According to Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan and Dr. Muhammad Taqi ud Din Al-Hilali, The Noble Quran, pg. 790, "the second name of Muhammad and it (Ahmad) literally meaning "One who praises Allah more than others."
Sahih al-Bukhari vol. 6, pg. 488 states Surah 61:6 is a variant reading and the name "Ahmad or "Muhammad" was not stipulated but ONLY AN UNNAMED PROPHET was given: "O Children of Israel, I am God’s Messenger to you and I announce to you a prophet whose community will be the last community and by which God will put the seal of the prophets and messengers".
This prophecy is apparently by the Muslim scholars own admission not a clear Sign (Ayat) of God/Allah SWT. This is not consistent with the claim in Surah 2:1, "This is the Book in its guidance, sure and without doubt, to those who fear Allah."
Therefore, who is Jesus/Isa (pbuh) speaking of in Surah 61:6? Perhaps, the Apostle Paul! This Israelite terrorist of the Christians had a personal revelation of Jesus, who commissioned him to take the everlasting Gospel to ALL NATIONS!
First, the Apostle Paul went to his fellow Jews, and then later was directed to go to the unbelievers. Paul faithfully preached to all the Greek, Roman and ARAB world! Yes, turn to the Injil, New Testament in Galatians 1: 13-17 and see!
"For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews my own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into ARABIA and later returned to Damascus."(Injil/ Galatians 1:13-17), see also Injil/Acts 9:1-31, 21:40-22:1-21.
Paul the Apostle was fluent in Aramaic and was said to spend up to 12 years in Arabia teaching about Jesus/Isa (pbuh) and warning people to turn to God from darkness, so its seems strange to see it said in the Qu’ran of Muhammad (pbuh),
"To give warning to a people to whom No Warner (Nazir) had come before thee." (Qu’ran Surah 28:46 (32:3). Is it not true that there were many Christians throughout the Middle East by the time of Muhammad (pbuh)?
Some may try to dismiss everything by saying the Injil (New Testament), Zabur, (Psalms), and Taurat (Old Testament) are all corrupted by men, yet they are truly Ignorant . The Qu’ran teaches the Bible is the Word of God/Allah SWT and can never be corrupted, changed or altered!
The Qu’ran says, "And in their footsteps We sent Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was Guidance, and Light and Confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a Guidance and an admonition to those who fear God. Let the People of the Gospel judge by what God hath revealed therein." (Surah 5:46-47).
"..No change can there be in the Words of God." (Surah 10:65).
"…there is None that can alter the Words (and decrees) of God." (Surah 6:34).
Baizawi says on this verse, "There is no altering His sayings, and there is no breach of His promises." Therefore, many stand quilty before God/Allah on the Day of Judgment for rejecting the truth of their own Books, and will be labeled as without religion (kafirs). Jesus/Isa (pbuh) is the Eternally Living Prophet, yes, much more than a Prophet, the Eternal Word of God/Allah, therefore, his Word is UnChanging and Authoritative yesterday, today and forever speaking to every dispute God/Allah’s SWT divine answers!
"Such (was/is) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of Truth, about which they (vainly) dispute." (Qu’ran 19 Maryam 34).
"Laa mahdiyan illa Isabnu Maryam" "There is no Imam Mahdi (Fully Guided Intercessor) except Jesus the Son of Mary." (Hadiths Ibnu Majah)
Do you honor Jesus/Isa (pbuh) as "God/Allah’s Word" (Qu’ran 4 An Nisa 171), and "a Sign for all Peoples"? (Qu’ran 21 Al Aanbiyaa 91). Do you wish to honor this one who is "nearest to Allah" both now and in the hereafter? (Qu’ran 3 Aali Imram 45). God/Allah SWT is the Protector of His Word and He will protect you as well if you trust in Him today through the name of Jesus/Isa!
"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." (Injil/ Acts 4:12).
First, do you believe? "And this is his command: to believe in the name of his son, Jesus the Messiah(Christ), and to love one another as he commanded us." (Injil/ I John 3:23-24) "Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them."(vs. 24).
"For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved." (Injil/ Romans 10:10).
The prayer of Muhammad (pbuh) before his death: "Oh God, forgive me, have mercy upon me and contact me to the Most High Friend." (Hadiths Shahih Bukari 1573). Then he lifted up his hand saying, "The Most High Friend.", then his hand laid down and he passed away. (Bukari 1574).
Who is this Most High Friend, Muhammad (pbuh) called upon at his death? "I am closer to Jesus the son of Mary in this earth and heaven." (Hadiths Shahih Bukari 1501). Yes, the Most High Friend whom Muhammad called upon in his last moments was Jesus/Isa (pbuh)!
I plead with you today in a world that has lost much of its sanity to consider this:
It is not an accident that your eyes have found this article, God/Allah has directed you to look at this today!
"Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts, as you did in the rebellion." (Injil/ Hebrews 3:15).
Secondly, I plead with you by the Mercy of God, to repent and change the direction you have been going, admit the wrong thinking and doing of your life, fear God/Allah SWT, and Obey Jesus/Isa (pbuh)!
"God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble, Submit yourselves then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Come near to God and He will come near to you. Wash your hands you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. Humble yourselves before the Lord, and He will lift you up." (Injil/ James 4:7-10).
Real change of heart leads to clear change of actions. Our motive for doing what is right cannot be just based on good works, its deeper, our motive is gratitude. (6)
"So Peace is on me the day I (Jesus) was born, the day that I die, and the day I shall be raised up to Life (again)" (Qu’ran 19 Maryam 33).
"Behold! God said: "O Jesus! Will take thee and raise thee to myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection…" (Qu’ran 3 Aali Imraan 55).
"That they (unbelieving Jews) said (in boast) "We killed (qatal)( al Masih Isa) Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of Allah," but they killed him not (wa maa qataluuhu), nor crucified him (wa maa salabuuhu), but so it was to appear to them (wa laakin shubbiha lahum), and those who differ therein are full of doubts (Shakk) with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for a surety-They killed him not (wa maa qataluuhu yaqiina)." (Qu’ran Surah 4:157).
Thirdly, Jesus/Isa (pbuh) came to earth as a sinless child for One Divine Purpose, to fulfill prophecy and SUBMIT TO GOD willingly His life as a Sacrifice for the sin of Mankind Once and for all time, so that all Mankind can be brought into a true relationship with God/Allah SWT as a "Sign to ALL PEOPLES".
Though the Jews might have mockingly boasted that they killed Jesus/Isa (pbuh), in truth, they did not, for they only instigated the Romans to actually crucify him. The Roman soldiers were experts at the torture of crucifying people. If they failed to execute the person, especially the right person, the penalty was that they would die for the failure! They always finished the job by thrusting a spear through the victims side to pierce their heart. Secular historians verify that there was no controversy about the death of Jesus/Isa (pbuh). (Injil/ see John 18 & Matthew 27:64). (Josephus/Tacitus) His enemies admit his death. Will you?
The Ignorant have veiled the truth of the death/burial and resurrection of Jesus/Isa (pbuh), by classifying it as a mutashahihat verse, i.e. "a verse in which it is something known only to Allah". The Injil/Gospel (New Testament) is very clear, and "cannot be changed" (Surah 10:65). No wonder, Muhammad had been told to consult the Christians whenever he was in doubt. "If thou (Muhammad) wert in doubt (shakk) as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book (Bible) from before thee." (Surah 10:94).
Study the Taraut (Old Testament) prophecies of the death of Jesus/Isa (pbuh), in Isaiah 50:4-10, 52:13-54:12, 61:1-11, the Zabur, Psalms 22:1-31, 34:20, 69:21, Zechariah 12:10-13:1, and compare them to the events in the Gospel/Injil/ (New Testament). These detailed prophecies were made hundreds of years before their fulfillment, and the fact that they were fulfilled in detail shows God/Allah’s SWT miraculous Sign for All Peoples!
The clear Signs of the Most High Friend (Jesus/Isa (pbuh), reveal the Siratul Mustaqiim (Straight Way) clearly for all mankind to follow.
"To Jesus, son of Mary we gave Clear Signs and strengthened Him with the Holy Spirit…Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error…" (Qu’ran 2 Al Baqarah 253, 256).
Perhaps in religion, we have followed the traditional ways of man more than the miraculous ways of God/Allah SWT. Those who reject other ways so as to obey the clear signs of Jesus/Isa (pbuh) are following the gracious guidance of God/Allah SWT. They are always prepared for death and the Kiamat. They have deep assurance of entering Heaven because they take refuge in the pure Holiness of the Most High Friend. Do you wish to have this assurance? Do you wish to be free from guilt because you have decided not to rely on human guidance, or to depend on the limited goodness of your own deeds?
"…whoever…believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy Hand-hold that never breaks." (Qu’ran 2 Al Baqarah 256).
This famous Ayat ul Kursi is clear when we look at ayat 253: We have security when we believe in the Clear Signs of Isa (Jesus) (pbuh) and the Prophets:
As Roh-ul-Lah, Jesus/Isa (pbuh) is the untainted UnCreated Word, without any form of impurity. Only in his holiness can mankind take His Handhold and make contact with God/Allah SWT, the Holy One, Spirit to spirit. As Roh-ul-Lah, He touches the sick with compassion and the healing power of God/Allah SWT.
In order to create true Love, God/Allah SWT created true Choice, one cannot have one without the other. Yet, once you choose to risk all and submit to Him through the divine Way He provided by Jesus/Isa (pbuh) death, burial, and resurrection. He promises to Raise You to the NEW Life free from sins torment, with power to overcome any test by His strengthening Spirit, and His faithful promise to Hold you Most securely forever as you walk faithfully with Him!
"My sheep listen to my (Jesus/Isa) voice; I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given then to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one." (Injil/ John 10:27-30).
Through life and death, we can have this lasting Peace if we believe in the miracle (muzzizah) Sign of God/Allah SWT Ta’ala about life and death.
In Surah Al Imran, ayat 55, Allah SWT, the Owner of the Day of Judgment, took back (the life of) Jesus/Isa, raised him back to Himself.
God/Allah SWT clears Isa (pbuh) of all charges, and rewards highly those who have Faith in the Korban of Isa (pbuh). Inshah Allah, When we take refuge in the Korban sacrifice of Jesus/Isa (pbuh), God/Allah SWT clears us and miraculously raises us to Heavenly places with Him. Al Hamdu’illah!
Can you cry out in the same way as others to our Most High Friend?
Pray now saying:
"Allahumma" (O God/Allah),
"Astafirullah" (forgive my sins) I reject all other ways to save myself and I trust Your Korban Sign in Jesus/Isa (pbuh) to save me on the Kiamat. I receive only your Way. Thank you for your precious Mercy to me. Amin
Jesus/Isa (pbuh) predicted the complete destruction of the Jewish Temple in AD 70, forever setting aside true Old Testament Judaism (only Zionism exists today).
In the Injil/Acts 2:11, when the Gospel of Salvation in Jesus/Isa (pbuh) was preached miraculously in the native tongue of every nation present, (including Arabs), they believed as you do now, and asked the question, what shall we do?
The Apostle Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the Name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off---for all whom the Lord our God will call. With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." (Injil/ Acts 2:38-40). It says the same day 3000 people accepted the message and were baptized and many of them probably became the first Arab Christians.
God/Allah can save anyone, even the worst terrorist like Saul, became the Apostle Paul, saying, "Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief…I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners Christ Jesus/Isa (pbuh) might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life."(Injil/ I Timothy 2:12-17).
God/Allah is calling All to Repentance, Muslims, Christians, Jews, and UnBelievers (especially who think they rule the world from the international Oil Company Offices) to a Worldwide Repentance and Reconciliation through Jesus/Isa (pbuh)!
Yes, God/Allah SWT is calling forth His Judgment upon all those who say they believe in the One True God, and then live like He doesn’t exist! He desires His faithful to honor Him now more than ever. Why? He wishes the UNBELIEVER to see the Prince of Peace rules in the hearts of men today, and that His glory can cover and change the earth just as the oceans He made.
I plead for Sanity in a World Insane, I plead for True Change in a Rebellious Day!
I plead for you to seek and turn to the Prince of Peace, Jesus/Isa (pbuh).
If you wish to read a simple guide to God/Allah’s Toriqabondi (baptism) for new believers, please let us know of your decision to be complete in Isa Al Masih (Jesus the Messiah).
(We give permission to translate this faithfully into other languages, and only ask that you email us and let us know when you have done so. Please send us a copy of the finished translation for our records. We also give permission to reprint this, and encourage bi/tri-lingual translations to be done (English/Arabic/and Your Language) if possible. May God/Allah SWT receive all the Glory!)
http://www.bible.com/jesus/mercy.html

floetry22
04-18-2003, 08:30 PM
I think Islam is a good religion for Blacks for two reason:

1. They do not worship any man (or God in man's form). Therefore little Black children do not have to think they are praying to a White man to save their souls. And the race of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is irrelevant because he was just the messenger. God worked through him, but he is not God (a la Jesus).

2. Islam is not segregated like Christianity. I have yet to see a mosque that is all-Black or all-Arab. Migration, birth, and immigration may cause influxes, but that's different.

I was raised and have enough since to know that God is not some white man who opressess people of color even though it's portrayed that way...... And since God is a spirit, how would you know what color he is today unless you died and saw him personally? Christianity does not promote segregation, it's the people or so-called Christians who do so! And since I'm from the south, you still have people stuck in their old confederate way of thinking, but that's eveywhere now. At my church back home, everyone is welcomed.... the make-up of the congregation is black, white, asian, latino, haitian, etc... we have just about every possible conbination you can think of. You could argue that AA's are converting to Islam because of the multiethnic components of Islam, its lack of bureaucratic hierarchy, and the fact that it is very direct. Well, Christianity is also multiethnic, the facts are very direct and factual, & it doesn't have a lot of bureacracy involved. And just speaking from my experience, our church does not have a building fund, a deacon, a deaconess, an evangelists, or any other nonsense that goes on today in black churches. It's just comprised of people who want to strengthen their spiritual relationship. I think Islam and Christianity have some of the same basic principles when it comes to family, morals, etc.., so I believe that people shouldn't try to put the two up against the other as good religion vs. bad religion.

On another topic,

From my understanding, most African Americans did not have contact with Islam until the early decades of the 20th century. It was at this point that Islam was presented in a context which attempted to redress the long history of oppression suffered by black Americans. Nobel Drew Ali, an African American from North Carolina, was among the first to link Islam with the black consciousness. He theorized that blacks should consider themselves to be "Moors " or "Asiatics, " which entailed embracing Islam. In his opinion, Christianity was the religion of whites; therefore converting to Islam would provide a source of pride and unity to the African-American community. Someone stated earlier that some enslaved Africans were Muslims. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but If they were freely Muslim, did they understand what Islam teaches about blacks. Why does Mohammed refer to blacks as “raisin heads”? In another Hadith, Mohammed is quoted as saying that blacks are, "pug-nosed slaves"? Many blacks are converting to Islam, but apparently the mosques they attend omit descriptions of Islam’s view of them. (DISCLAIMER: Again, this is not an attempt to put down the Islam religion... I would just like to know the answers to this questions based on an islam religion class that I took & the articles that I read....It could mean that I have misinterpreted some of the passages).

Saidah
04-19-2003, 05:59 AM
I think Islam is a good religion for Blacks for two reason:

1. They do not worship any man (or God in man's form). Therefore little Black children do not have to think they are praying to a White man to save their souls. And the race of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is irrelevant because he was just the messenger. God worked through him, but he is not God (a la Jesus).

2. Islam is not segregated like Christianity. I have yet to see a mosque that is all-Black or all-Arab. Migration, birth, and immigration may cause influxes, but that's different.

I was raised and have enough since to know that God is not some white man who opressess people of color even though it's portrayed that way...... And since God is a spirit, how would you know what color he is today unless you died and saw him personally? Christianity does not promote segregation, it's the people or so-called Christians who do so! And since I'm from the south, you still have people stuck in their old confederate way of thinking, but that's eveywhere now. At my church back home, everyone is welcomed.... the make-up of the congregation is black, white, asian, latino, haitian, etc... we have just about every possible conbination you can think of. You could argue that AA's are converting to Islam because of the multiethnic components of Islam, its lack of bureaucratic hierarchy, and the fact that it is very direct. Well, Christianity is also multiethnic, the facts are very direct and factual, & it doesn't have a lot of bureacracy involved. And just speaking from my experience, our church does not have a building fund, a deacon, a deaconess, an evangelists, or any other nonsense that goes on today in black churches. It's just comprised of people who want to strengthen their spiritual relationship. I think Islam and Christianity have some of the same basic principles when it comes to family, morals, etc.., so I believe that people shouldn't try to put the two up against the other as good religion vs. bad religion.

On another topic,

From my understanding, most African Americans did not have contact with Islam until the early decades of the 20th century. It was at this point that Islam was presented in a context which attempted to redress the long history of oppression suffered by black Americans. Nobel Drew Ali, an African American from North Carolina, was among the first to link Islam with the black consciousness. He theorized that blacks should consider themselves to be "Moors " or "Asiatics, " which entailed embracing Islam. In his opinion, Christianity was the religion of whites; therefore converting to Islam would provide a source of pride and unity to the African-American community. Someone stated earlier that some enslaved Africans were Muslims. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but If they were freely Muslim, did they understand what Islam teaches about blacks. Why does Mohammed refer to blacks as “raisin heads”? In another Hadith, Mohammed is quoted as saying that blacks are, "pug-nosed slaves"? Many blacks are converting to Islam, but apparently the mosques they attend omit descriptions of Islam’s view of them. (DISCLAIMER: Again, this is not an attempt to put down the Islam religion... I would just like to know the answers to this questions based on an islam religion class that I took & the articles that I read....It could mean that I have misinterpreted some of the passages).

Floetry what are the sources of these hadith? You cant trust the sources of all hadiths bcs it is well known in the muslim world that some are true and some are false. Only certain hadiths are considered true. So if I were you I would take it with a grain of salt. I have never heard of the hadith that you mention. And if these hadith are supposedly true then it certainly doesnt explain why one of the prophets companions was a former African slave. Freed by the efforts of the muslims who made a conserted effort to free slaves. A man who was higly respected by the Prophet Muhammad and his followers. If he saw blacks only as slaves then his behaviour certainly contradicts this. In addition to this his last sermon also informs the muslim community that no race is superior to another. Arabs are not superior to blacks and blacks not superior to arabs. So again if he saw blacks as inferior his words certainly contradict this. You should find out wether or not these hadith are considered to be reliable before you believe them. And you should also understand that the Quran holds more weight than any hadith. Because the Quran is the word of God, while hadith are mearly stories about the prohets life. There are hadith in existance which actually contrdict the Quran. For instance the Quran forbids the drinking of alcohol, however there is a hadith which states that as long as you are not in the same room with the alcohol then you can drink it. I would think that the Prophet Muhammed would not instruct muslims to disobey God so then perhaps this is something he never said and was made up by someone? What the Quran teaches about race is that God created different tribes and nations so that we may know one another (not that we may hate one another). And that God considers the best among men to be the most faithful. As far as I am concerned this holds more weight than any supposedly true hadith out there. This is the opinion of Islam towards black people.

Midoria
04-20-2003, 12:29 AM
I was raised and have enough since to know that God is not some white man who opressess people of color even though it's portrayed that way...... And since God is a spirit, how would you know what color he is today unless you died and saw him personally? Christianity does not promote segregation, it's the people or so-called Christians who do so! And since I'm from the south, you still have people stuck in their old confederate way of thinking, but that's eveywhere now. At my church back home, everyone is welcomed.... the make-up of the congregation is black, white, asian, latino, haitian, etc... we have just about every possible conbination you can think of. You could argue that AA's are converting to Islam because of the multiethnic components of Islam, its lack of bureaucratic hierarchy, and the fact that it is very direct. Well, Christianity is also multiethnic, the facts are very direct and factual, & it doesn't have a lot of bureacracy involved. And just speaking from my experience, our church does not have a building fund, a deacon, a deaconess, an evangelists, or any other nonsense that goes on today in black churches. It's just comprised of people who want to strengthen their spiritual relationship. I think Islam and Christianity have some of the same basic principles when it comes to family, morals, etc.., so I believe that people shouldn't try to put the two up against the other as good religion vs. bad religion.

On another topic,

From my understanding, most African Americans did not have contact with Islam until the early decades of the 20th century. It was at this point that Islam was presented in a context which attempted to redress the long history of oppression suffered by black Americans. Nobel Drew Ali, an African American from North Carolina, was among the first to link Islam with the black consciousness. He theorized that blacks should consider themselves to be "Moors " or "Asiatics, " which entailed embracing Islam. In his opinion, Christianity was the religion of whites; therefore converting to Islam would provide a source of pride and unity to the African-American community. Someone stated earlier that some enslaved Africans were Muslims. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but If they were freely Muslim, did they understand what Islam teaches about blacks. Why does Mohammed refer to blacks as “raisin heads”? In another Hadith, Mohammed is quoted as saying that blacks are, "pug-nosed slaves"? Many blacks are converting to Islam, but apparently the mosques they attend omit descriptions of Islam’s view of them. (DISCLAIMER: Again, this is not an attempt to put down the Islam religion... I would just like to know the answers to this questions based on an islam religion class that I took & the articles that I read....It could mean that I have misinterpreted some of the passages).



I don't like the concept of Jesus because that shows favoritism to one race. PERIOD. Are you going to say that the race of Jesus is not important? If God is supposed to love everyone equally, why in the world would he take human form and favor one ethnicity?

The fact is there are White Jesus pictures in millions of BLACK homes, churches, and Christian schools. Subconsciously that has got to affect the morale of the little Black children who look at it every day. I have seen some people from AFRICA...one of the first places to accept Christianity... with Blonde haired blue-eyed Jesus pictures. My friend from Ethiopia refused to accept a Black picture someone tried to give her. She said that it didn't "look right" and that she was used to the White one. That is SAD! The most popular depictions of Christian figures are White. When is the last time you saw Black saints or an Ethnic Jesus? In Islam, you are not allowed to depict people. Why do you think that is?

Christianity is still segregated. At home (Washington DC) we have churches for Whites, Koreans, Chinese, Filipino, Black, Latin, Caribbean. The list goes on and on. You can't even read the signs for many of the Asian Churches, and forget about the Latin ones (unless you speak Spanish). And even in the so-called "mixed" churches all the races stick with their own. They know which groups and committees are for the White and which ones are for the Asians and Blacks. Also, did you know Muslims are more likely to ignore race for the benefit of religion? Most of my Muslim friends, male and female, are in interracial marriages.

And about the Hadith's...well I need more than your word. Perhaps one of the Muslim nappturals can help you with that. I have little to no experience with Hadiths. But what you said sounded off. VERY OFF. But I’m guessing you don’t know much about Islam, so I won’t hold it against you. However, I will say that in one of his final sermons, the Prophet clearly stated that different races should not divide Muslims. I wish I still had the text, but I think I saw it in the Mosque. Perhaps I can find it online.

All I have to say is this: If Christianity was so good for Blacks, then why are so many turning their backs on it? Muslims don't advertise their religion like Christians do. When do you see Muslims TV stations, Islamic chain stores (Like Heaven and Earth) or billboards sponsored by Muslims? But people are still converting like crazy. Not just Blacks either, but Whites, Asians (even though Asia has the biggest Muslim population), and Latino people.

Midoria
04-20-2003, 12:37 AM
The Bible is polluted because it is not a protected text.

Not a protected text? What does this mean? Says who and why? What is there to back up this claim?

Well, anyway, I read this article where the author wrote about finding support for the Bible in the Qu’ran. Now I haven’t read the Qu’ran, so I don’t know whether or not this person has taken any of the quotes out of context, but can anyone dispute what she has written, using the scripture as reference.


"Protected text" means that you cannot add or take away anything.

The Bible has versions of it, and there are books missing. If the Bible was a protected text, this would not be true. It can't possibly be a protected text and have versions.

And of course the Qur'an agrees with parts of the Bible. Why does that need to be proven? It's the same God.

elleebeme5
04-20-2003, 03:41 AM
Fact still remains that many Christians don't understand the trinity. And when they get stuck they say "have faith

Most Christians I know don't say "have faith" when we're stuck. We start there. Faith in Christ is such a simple concept that it can be difficult for people to understand, especially if they're skeptical.

Midoria
04-20-2003, 03:43 AM
Someone stated earlier that some enslaved Africans were Muslims. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but If they were freely Muslim, did they understand what Islam teaches about blacks. Why does Mohammed refer to blacks as “raisin heads”? In another Hadith, Mohammed is quoted as saying that blacks are, "pug-nosed slaves"? Many blacks are converting to Islam, but apparently the mosques they attend omit descriptions of Islam’s view of them. (DISCLAIMER: Again, this is not an attempt to put down the Islam religion... I would just like to know the answers to this questions based on an islam religion class that I took & the articles that I read....It could mean that I have misinterpreted some of the passages).



(This is part of the sermon was delivered on the ninth day of Dhul Hijah, 10 A.H. (632 A.D.) in the valley of Mount Arafat.)


O People, listen to me in earnest, worship Allah, say your five daily prayers, fast during the month of Ramadhan, and give your wealth in zakat. Perform Hajj if you can afford to. All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab, nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black, nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is the brother of another Muslim, and that Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves.

elleebeme5
04-20-2003, 03:49 AM
It's interesting. The only black people I know - and I don't know all of us -who refer to Jesus as white, or refer to worshiping a white Jesus, are non-Christians.

Midoria
04-20-2003, 03:53 AM
It's interesting. The only black people I know - and I don't know all of us -who refer to Jesus as white, or refer to worshiping a white Jesus, are non-Christians.


I don't think that Jesus was White, but I know he wasn't 100% Black either. The point is, why would God favor a certain race? That is not equal love.

brwnsuga7310
04-20-2003, 05:37 AM
In christianity, God does not favor any particular race. It is written in the Bible that God is not a respector of persons, meaning that he does not favor anyone, period. It is also written that God so loved the world that he sent Jesus, not God so loved white folks... What race Jesus might have looked like when he first walked the earth is of no relevance. Jesus didn't say that he only came to save people who looked like him, he said he came to save the world. This white depiction of Jesus has nothing to do with the Jesus of the Bible, and this controversy is just a smoke screen that folks use to deter others from the truth that Jesus came to reveal. It also has to do with the eurocentric cultures that produced these images. It's about Michaelangelo and renaissance art, it has nothing to do with the truth. It is typical for white people to twist things into their own images, I've seem countless hollywood depictions of ancient Egypt, where the Egyptians were all white. Does this negate the truth about who these people were? Of course not. Jesus' image has been co-opted by white folks, but that is a creation of man and not of God. That there is division within the christian church is a creation of man, and not God. That black people never questioned the wisdom of hanging a depiction of a white Jesus in their homes is an error of judgement of man, and not God. These things have nothing to do with what christianity is. That someone holds something up and says it's christian does not make it so. That someone is following something that is purported to be christian does not necessarily mean it is christian. If it's not in the Bible, guess what, it is not christian, end of story. These things you refer to are not in the Bible, they have been created by people. And there is nothing created by humans that should deter anyone from following the living word of God that is the Holy Bible.

That anyone can call a religion that was born in the holy lands of the middle east a white religion is totally beyond me. It flies in the face of how Jesus instructed how the faith should be spread. He said, "Go into ALL the world and preach the Good News to ALL creation." (Mark 16:15, emphasis mine). He said "Therefore go and make disciples of ALL nations, baptizng them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." (Mathew 28:19-20, emphasis mine). Therefore, this faith is for everyone living on this earth. And he is the first and only authority on this.

BTW, I did not write that little treatise on the Bible and the Qu'ran. I thought I made it clear that it was an article I found, and I freely admitted that I haven't read the Qu'ran. From my reading of the article I seems to me that she (I'm assuming the author is female) was very knowledgable of both books. I asked if anyone could refute her claims using scripture as a reference. I mean anyone can say, "no, she's wrong", but then that's just opinion. I'm looking for scriptural reference.

brwnsuga7310
04-20-2003, 05:41 AM
Floetry wrote:

I was raised and have enough since to know that God is not some white man who opressess people of color even though it's portrayed that way...... And since God is a spirit, how would you know what color he is today unless you died and saw him personally? Christianity does not promote segregation, it's the people or so-called Christians who do so! And since I'm from the south, you still have people stuck in their old confederate way of thinking, but that's eveywhere now. At my church back home, everyone is welcomed.... the make-up of the congregation is black, white, asian, latino, haitian, etc... we have just about every possible conbination you can think of. You could argue that AA's are converting to Islam because of the multiethnic components of Islam, its lack of bureaucratic hierarchy, and the fact that it is very direct. Well, Christianity is also multiethnic, the facts are very direct and factual, & it doesn't have a lot of bureacracy involved. And just speaking from my experience, our church does not have a building fund, a deacon, a deaconess, an evangelists, or any other nonsense that goes on today in black churches. It's just comprised of people who want to strengthen their spiritual relationship. I think Islam and Christianity have some of the same basic principles when it comes to family, morals, etc.., so I believe that people shouldn't try to put the two up against the other as good religion vs. bad religion.

You must go to my church. :D

elleebeme5
04-20-2003, 11:33 AM
What race Jesus might have looked like when he first walked the earth is of no relevance. Jesus didn't say that he only came to save people who looked like him, he said he came to save the world. This white depiction of Jesus has nothing to do with the Jesus of the Bible, and this controversy is just a smoke screen that folks use to deter others from the truth that Jesus came to reveal.

I totally agree and Christians understand that. People who choose not to understand it, and are content in that, should be left to the Holy Spirit. It is not our battle.

brwnsuga7310
04-20-2003, 04:10 PM
ellebeme5 wrote:

I totally agree and Christians understand that. People who choose not to understand it, and are content in that, should be left to the Holy Spirit. It is not our battle.

I totally agree with you sister. But I felt compelled to reply because there are others that view this forum. Some may be new or conflicted in their faith, and feel discouraged by reading things like this. I know because the very thing happened to me. So the only thing I can do is lift up the name of Jesus, tell them the truth, and then get out of the way. He will take care of the rest.

elleebeme5
04-20-2003, 07:29 PM
I totally agree with you sister. But I felt compelled to reply because there are others that view this forum. Some may be new or conflicted in their faith, and feel discouraged by reading things like this. I know because the very thing happened to me. So the only thing I can do is lift up the name of Jesus, tell them the truth, and then get out of the way. He will take care of the rest.

It is important that when we lift up the name of Jesus, that we don't put down or criticize anyone else's religion. I don't believe in Islam but it is not necessary to say or do anything against it (Islam) to lift up Jesus. Likewise, there is no need for offensive material toward our faith to be promoted or posted in order to lift up Islam. Mutual respect would go a long way in helping us get along.

floetry22
04-21-2003, 05:53 PM
In christianity, God does not favor any particular race. It is written in the Bible that God is not a respector of persons, meaning that he does not favor anyone, period. It is also written that God so loved the world that he sent Jesus, not God so loved white folks... What race Jesus might have looked like when he first walked the earth is of no relevance. Jesus didn't say that he only came to save people who looked like him, he said he came to save the world. This white depiction of Jesus has nothing to do with the Jesus of the Bible, and this controversy is just a smoke screen that folks use to deter others from the truth that Jesus came to reveal. It also has to do with the eurocentric cultures that produced these images. It's about Michaelangelo and renaissance art, it has nothing to do with the truth. It is typical for white people to twist things into their own images, I've seem countless hollywood depictions of ancient Egypt, where the Egyptians were all white. Does this negate the truth about who these people were? Of course not. Jesus' image has been co-opted by white folks, but that is a creation of man and not of God. That there is division within the christian church is a creation of man, and not God. That black people never questioned the wisdom of hanging a depiction of a white Jesus in their homes is an error of judgement of man, and not God. These things have nothing to do with what christianity is. That someone holds something up and says it's christian does not make it so. That someone is following something that is purported to be christian does not necessarily mean it is christian. If it's not in the Bible, guess what, it is not christian, end of story. These things you refer to are not in the Bible, they have been created by people. And there is nothing created by humans that should deter anyone from following the living word of God that is the Holy Bible.


You took the words right out of my mouth! The division of the church over the race of Christ was created by man, not God & that's the point I was trying to make. Yesterday I was watching Jesus Of Nazzareth by Franco Zeffirelli on the History channel and the main characters (Jesus, Mary, Barabbas) were played by non-semitic looking people. But this does not take away from who these people really were.

Saidah wrote:
Floetry what are the sources of these hadith? You cant trust the sources of all hadiths bcs it is well known in the muslim world that some are true and some are false. Only certain hadiths are considered true. So if I were you I would take it with a grain of salt. I have never heard of the hadith that you mention. And if these hadith are supposedly true then it certainly doesnt explain why one of the prophets companions was a former African slave. Freed by the efforts of the muslims who made a conserted effort to free slaves. A man who was higly respected by the Prophet Muhammad and his followers. If he saw blacks only as slaves then his behaviour certainly contradicts this. In addition to this his last sermon also informs the muslim community that no race is superior to another. Arabs are not superior to blacks and blacks not superior to arabs. So again if he saw blacks as inferior his words certainly contradict this.

>>>>Ok, so it's not true. The professor mentioned in class the division of arabs and blacks in north africa & referred to these hadith. I was just curious about the subject because it didn't make sense to me at the time.

floetry22
04-21-2003, 06:08 PM
Christianity is still segregated. At home (Washington DC) we have churches for Whites, Koreans, Chinese, Filipino, Black, Latin, Caribbean. The list goes on and on. You can't even read the signs for many of the Asian Churches, and forget about the Latin ones (unless you speak Spanish). And even in the so-called "mixed" churches all the races stick with their own. They know which groups and committees are for the White and which ones are for the Asians and Blacks. Also, did you know Muslims are more likely to ignore race for the benefit of religion? Most of my Muslim friends, male and female, are in interracial marriages.


All I have to say is this: If Christianity was so good for Blacks, then why are so many turning their backs on it? Muslims don't advertise their religion like Christians do. When do you see Muslims TV stations, Islamic chain stores (Like Heaven and Earth) or billboards sponsored by Muslims? But people are still converting like crazy. Not just Blacks either, but Whites, Asians (even though Asia has the biggest Muslim population), and Latino people.

I still don't understand why you think that Christianity itself is segregated because it's not.......people make their own choices to where they want to worship. And all the races don't stick to their "own" kind because I belong to a congregation that doesn't tolerate this. Everyone interacts with each other& there are no white committees and asian committees. And would you be surprised that we have interracial marriages also? My mom's friend who is white is married to an Asian guy & our pastor's daughter is married to a Latino guy. As far as Muslims not advertising their religion & people are still converting, I say that's just a matter of choice. We live in a country were people can choose what religion they belong to & where they want to worship.

brwnsuga7310
04-22-2003, 01:25 AM
@ elleebeme5: Point well taken. It was not my intention to disrespect anyone personally nor their religion. If anything I've written came across that way I sincerely apologize, as that was not my intent.

elleebeme5
04-22-2003, 04:41 AM
@ elleebeme5: Point well taken. It was not my intention to disrespect anyone personally nor their religion. If anything I've written came across that way I sincerely apologize, as that was not my intent.

I don't know that you did. I looked at my post and realize that it looks like I was talking about you directly. I do think that when people on both sides - Christianity and Islam - are passionate about their faith, they can sometimes do and say things that are not productive. Lifting the name of Jesus is all we have to do. We don't have to put down Islam or Muslims to do that.

Safiyyah
05-01-2003, 09:07 AM
the holy ghost? why is it called a ghost? And why is God divided in three parts? All claiming to be all powerful. So if the holy ghost made london and said he would protect it and Jesus came along and made england. Then the holy ghost was not able to protect his creation. And if Jesus said he would protect is and God came and made europe. then Jesus was not able to protect his creation. There is still on dominant force!!

Why I need to go through Jesus, to talk to God, is beyond me. And no I do not need/want any holy ghosts. I still cant get over the ghost thing. I wonder why I never noticed it before. Ya3ni these people have a holy jinn? :rofl:

As for the bible being unauthentic. It is well known you hae lost MANY of your books during one revolution or another. I had a hold of a bible from the 16th century. Let me tell you this book was huge and heavy and until today it is still illegal to hold a copy. Man, there were books in there, I have never seen or heard of. Some of which the muslims have gotten hold of (I do not know how) and are now publishing. Seems like somebody was busy trying to remove all the things which would break the faith down, and make you all muslims.

King James version was written by king James ( and this is the most common version you have, and even quite a few of the newer brands are derived from this version) So what did king James do with the original. He even changed the commandment from thou shall not murder, to thou shall not kill. And there is a difference because murder is taking an innocent life. Killing can be justified i.e the person was goig to murder you, and it was self defence or they attached your home and family. so on.

You people do not have a leg to stand on. So if Jesus is God, and God is the father of Jesus. And then also Jesus is the son of man. Then how is it possible possible to be The father and son of yourself at the same time?

Safiyyah
05-01-2003, 09:43 AM
BTW Isa (jesus) is a creation of Allah, and he has no power to benefit you or harm you, except that which Allah has given him.

Exactly what my signature says, but I couldn't fit in the entire verse so here it is:

... "Who is the Lord of the heavens and the earth?" Say: "(It is) Allâh." Say: "Have you then taken (for worship) Auliyâ' (protectors, etc.) other than Him, such as have no power either for benefit or for harm to themselves?" Say: "Is the blind equal to the one who sees? Or darkness equal to light? Or do they assign to Allâh partners who created the like of His creation, so that the creation (which they made and His creation) seemed alike to them." Say: "Allâh is the Creator of all things, He is the One, the Irresistible." (Ra'd 13:16)

let me emphasise: Have you taken then for worship protectors other than Allah, such as have no power for benefit or for harm to themselves? let alone to you. Do you assign partners to Allah who created the like of Allah's creation, so that the creation which they made and the creation of Allah seemed alike to you? Do you even know how to make a bean or a grain of rice? You know how to reproduce them and even then Allah has full control because if he says no rain, it isn't growing. You have no knowledge except the knowledge which Allah has given you.

Subhan allah! Allah asks you in the Qur'an:
Tell Me! The seed that you sow in the ground. (Al-Waqi'ah 56:63)
Is it you that make it grow, or are We the Grower? (Al-Waqi'ah 56:64)
Were it Our Will, We could crumble it to dry pieces, and you would be regretful (or left in wonderment). (Al-Waqi'ah 56:65)

Tell Me! The water that you drink. (Al-Waqi'ah 56:68 )
Is it you who cause it from the rainclouds to come down, or are We the Causer of it to come down? (Al-Waqi'ah 56:69)
If We willed, We verily could make it salt (and undrinkable), why then do you not give thanks (to Allâh)? (Al-Waqi'ah 56:70)

Tell Me! The fire which you kindle, (Al-Waqi'ah 56:71)
Is it you who made the tree thereof to grow, or are We the Grower? (Al-Waqi'ah 56:72)
We have made it a Reminder (for the Hell-fire, in the Hereafter); and an article of use for the travellers (and all the others, in this world). (Al-Waqi'ah 56:73)

The Qur'an is the truth. It has no contradictions in it. The bible has loads of contraditions.

elleebeme5
05-01-2003, 12:02 PM
I can't read the last posts on this thread.

BlackOnyx03
05-03-2003, 05:38 PM
What race Jesus might have looked like when he first walked the earth is of no relevance. Jesus didn't say that he only came to save people who looked like him, he said he came to save the world. This white depiction of Jesus has nothing to do with the Jesus of the Bible, and this controversy is just a smoke screen that folks use to deter others from the truth that Jesus came to reveal.

I totally agree and Christians understand that. People who choose not to understand it, and are content in that, should be left to the Holy Spirit. It is not our battle.

PREACH! PREACH!! Brwnsuga and elleebeme -- you ladies are ON POINT!!!!

marissasensei
05-04-2003, 01:37 AM
King James version was written by king James ( and this is the most common version you have, and even quite a few of the newer brands are derived from this version) So what did king James do with the original. He even changed the commandment from thou shall not murder, to thou shall not kill. And there is a difference because murder is taking an innocent life. Killing can be justified i.e the person was goig to murder you, and it was self defence or they attached your home and family. so on.



Actually, King James himself didn't write the KJV. He commissioned it in response to other (competing) translations. The appeal of the KJV was that it was written in what was (then considered to be) the vernacular.

elleebeme5
05-04-2003, 11:42 AM
You people do not have a leg to stand on. So if Jesus is God, and God is the father of Jesus. And then also Jesus is the son of man. Then how is it possible possible to be The father and son of yourself at the same time?

Sariyyah - it's disappointing to see that you choose to ridicule us for what we believe. By all means you are entitled to disagree and think that we are wrong, but the tone of your posts seem like you're making an effort to put down Christianity (please note that on other posts I've asked Christians to watch how they respond to comments about Islam) rather than explain what Islam offers. I don't see how explaining the value of Islam is promoted by ridiculing and criticizing Christianity. I'm sure you're been chided for your faith and you most likely didn't like the way it felt.

I would attempt to answer the above question but my guess is that it's being asked not learn more about our faith (you've explained that before). Should you really be interested, I'd be happy to share the gospel with you. I don't typically witness to people who have expressed that they are happy with their faith and have no interest in Christianity as you have.

This is a great forum. I've learned a great deal about other faiths and even other denominations of Christianity from the women here. I for one however, don't learn by ridicule or sarcasm.

rozlips
05-04-2003, 05:31 PM
As these nice Christian ladies won't say it, as a non-Christian I most assuredly will. This chick gets scarier by the minute. Fiendishly defending her own religion while attacking others. Anybody who knows anything about religion knows its an issue of faith, period. Any agnostic can pick a religion apart, including your own, but religion is not based in logic, but in faith. Either you believe it or you don't, but to sit here and criticize Christianity while literally foaming at the mouth if anyone dare question Islam, no matter how judiciously, couldn't be more hypocritical. But of course, you're the same person who said a Muslim life is worth more than others, and that if you found yourself in combat you'd frag your fellow soldiers. People like you give ANY religion a bad name. And I'm so happy that there are other Muslims here to defend their faith from the likes of you.

Sorry to butt into the thread as a non-Christian, but this is pathetic.

Ananse
05-05-2003, 12:26 AM
As these nice Christian ladies won't say it, as a non-Christian I most assuredly will. This chick gets scarier by the minute. Fiendishly defending her own religion while attacking others. Anybody who knows anything about religion knows its an issue of faith, period. Any agnostic can pick a religion apart, including your own, but religion is not based in logic, but in faith. Either you believe it or you don't, but to sit here and criticize Christianity while literally foaming at the mouth if anyone dare question Islam, no matter how judiciously, couldn't be more hypocritical. But of course, you're the same person who said a Muslim life is worth more than others, and that if you found yourself in combat you'd frag your fellow soldiers. People like you give ANY religion a bad name. And I'm so happy that there are other Muslims here to defend their faith from the likes of you.

Sorry to butt into the thread as a non-Christian, but this is pathetic.


Well said, couldn't have said it any better myself.

lovinblackness
05-05-2003, 01:13 AM
People like you give ANY religion a bad name. And I'm so happy that there are other Muslims here to defend their faith from the likes of you.

Sorry to butt into the thread as a non-Christian, but this is pathetic.

We are all suceptible to morphing into sheeple. Life is so much easier if you don't have to think about, analyze and critique the information that comes your way. We see this very clearly in politics, but it seems to get much stickier when it comes to religion. The truth is that life is much simpler in black and white and it is much easier for some to believe in something if they don't question it too much and can simply be told what to think. It is sad for me to see this happen amongst Muslims, because I know all that Islam has offered the world and if this type of thought/spiritual corruption had not crept into our religious tradition we would have easily continued along the path of tremendous scientific and social advances that we saw in the early centuries of Islam. But, people are people and we see this type of thing all across the earth in very different religions and cultures. In the end the forces of ego and tribalism often prevail, and isn't it wonderful to know everything and be secure in the 'wrongness' of the rest of the world? :(

elleebeme5
05-05-2003, 03:23 AM
But, people are people and we see this type of thing all across the earth in very different religions and cultures. In the end the forces of ego and tribalism often prevail, and isn't it wonderful to know everything and be secure in the 'wrongness' of the rest of the world? :(

Quoting Rodney King - "Can't we all just get along?"
I was asked to judge the homecoming step show at our college. One of the rules was that the sororities and fraternities could not talk about the another group. If you even mentioned another group one time, you were disqualified. If you mentioned another group a second time, you were not allowed to participate in any other step shows that academic year. A third time, you were suspended from all activities for the academic year. The point is that you were free to lavish all kinds of good talk and attention on your group, but don't you dare say anything about someone else's. It worked and the shows were fun.

lovinblackness
05-05-2003, 04:17 AM
Quoting Rodney King - "Can't we all just get along?"
say anything about someone else's. It worked and the shows were fun

Oh No! :shock: Has it really gotten this bad? :umm: Lord help us all when we start qouting Rodney :drinking: King! :wink:

afrikankween
05-05-2003, 08:42 AM
But, people are people and we see this type of thing all across the earth in very different religions and cultures. In the end the forces of ego and tribalism often prevail, and isn't it wonderful to know everything and be secure in the 'wrongness' of the rest of the world? :(

Quoting Rodney King - "Can't we all just get along?"
I was asked to judge the homecoming step show at our college. One of the rules was that the sororities and fraternities could not talk about the another group. If you even mentioned another group one time, you were disqualified. If you mentioned another group a second time, you were not allowed to participate in any other step shows that academic year. A third time, you were suspended from all activities for the academic year. The point is that you were free to lavish all kinds of good talk and attention on your group, but don't you dare say anything about someone else's. It worked and the shows were fun.
Ok Elleebeme I totally understand your point. However, what is wrong with criticism. It must be something "wrong" with _______________ for a person to be apart of _____________. Especially for people who grew up in ____________ and converted to ________________. Wouldnt that be a critical part of the discussion?

elleebeme5
05-05-2003, 01:05 PM
Perhaps criticism is fair, but does that require ridicule?

criticism = The trinity doesn't seem possible.
ridicule = Yall don't have a leg to stand on.

criticism = so much of the original scriptures have been lost, you can't rely on what you're reading because an essential point might be missing.

ridicule = Seems like somebody was busy trying to remove all the things which would break the faith down, and make you all muslims.


When you make light of something that you know people take seriously, it comes across as being rude and totally uncalled for. But what is the point of the criticism in the first place? Discuss and educate but can't that be done without using words that you know will inflame? (We all understand the concept of 'it's not what you say but how you say it'.) I'm not sure whether or the Saffiyah responded to the respect thread but my guess is no because she doesn't seem to repect people's right to believe something different. If I respect your right to believe what you choose, then why would I be critical and make fun of something for which you have so much passion? The only reason I can think of is to hurt the person or somehow make them feel bad. After all, if you were Christian and are now Muslim, then there is obviously something that Islam is providing for you that gives you peace. Who am I to tell you to ridicule you for that choice? Obviously I think it's not the way to heaven. But my posting vile things about Islam on a board, is not going to make you convert to Christianity, especially if you left that faith.

elleebeme5
05-05-2003, 02:43 PM
It must be something "wrong" with _______________ for a person to be apart of _____________. Especially for people who grew up in ____________ and converted to ________________. Wouldnt that be a critical part of the discussion?[/quote]

I don't see it that there has be something wrong, can't it just be a choice? I don't care for black-eyed peas, does that make them bad? I think natural hair is better; does that mean people who wear their hair relaxed are bad? Obviously, I think that there is only way to eternal life and I want everyone on earth to believe in Jesus as the Savior. So I think everyone should make the same choice. But, should you not make that choice, I'll respect your decision and leave you alone. I won't tell you why you're wrong. I won't say your faith is based on fairy tale. I won't criticize your rituals. I'll say, "she left that faith for this one" and peace be unto her. I'm sure you can explain what drew you Islam without ever mentioning Christianity, can't you? My faith in Christ has absolutely nothing to do with Buddha.

starchild
05-05-2003, 03:41 PM
As these nice Christian ladies won't say it, as a non-Christian I most assuredly will. This chick gets scarier by the minute. Fiendishly defending her own religion while attacking others. Anybody who knows anything about religion knows its an issue of faith, period. Any agnostic can pick a religion apart, including your own, but religion is not based in logic, but in faith. Either you believe it or you don't, but to sit here and criticize Christianity while literally foaming at the mouth if anyone dare question Islam, no matter how judiciously, couldn't be more hypocritical. But of course, you're the same person who said a Muslim life is worth more than others, and that if you found yourself in combat you'd frag your fellow soldiers. People like you give ANY religion a bad name. And I'm so happy that there are other Muslims here to defend their faith from the likes of you.

Sorry to butt into the thread as a non-Christian, but this is pathetic.

standing Ovation!!! * clap* *clap* yes! It is absurd to answer christinity through the Koran because the Koran has no authority in Christianity. it would be no difference if i tried to "prove" someone wrong with Islam by using bible verus. And let the truth be told. It could be investigated that the original koran was burned anyway. So, we can go back and forth over things heard etc. The bottom line is that none of us were there so we can not speak on a factual basis.

like Rozlips said, faith is the basis.

I wanted to speak on what Saffiyah was saying about the Holy Ghost. The holy ghost is real. you don;t know what you are missing girl :wink: I am glad that i serve a God that i can feel every now and then :wink:

Twistednkinky
08-21-2003, 07:22 PM
The dialogue in this thread was very:

Interesting
&
Intense

I don't have anything to add to it, but I am glad that I came across it!

nottyfreedom
08-22-2003, 03:29 AM
Originally posted by starchild@Feb 26 2003, 05:43 PM
Some people have accepted islam cause christianity is white man's religion, well, Arabs enslaved africans as well in addition, you would have to pray in a foreign tongue. So i don't understand that ideology.
yep...i hear yah.

notty

nottyfreedom
08-22-2003, 03:32 AM
Originally posted by lovinblackness@Feb 27 2003, 11:56 AM

I also wanted to add that Allah is the arabic word for God. If you go to a christian church service anywhere in the Arab world, whose name will you hear repeated? Allah. Just like if you go to church in the spanish world you will hear Dios or in Iran Khudaa. How ignorant and anglo-centric to assume that everyone in the world would refer to the divine by the English word God. :roll:
this has always been an argument of mine. ITA!

notty

afrikankween
08-22-2003, 03:47 AM
test

lovinblackness
08-22-2003, 05:57 AM
test

Cassandra
08-22-2003, 06:30 PM
One thing, Islam has given black people a sense of self love. One thing, Islam and Judisam, there is a sense of morality, which Christianity has lost, which is sad. The meaning less sex, the one night stands, no self control, non-committment, is something, which is destroying society, maybe Islam and Judisam is giving back people their conscience. I am a Christian and I admire the how the Muslim women dress, specially African women, they dress stylish and elegent. The Muslim women walk with a sense of pride, while some Christian women seem pleased to behave and treat themselves less than how they are, with the short skirts which are more like belts, showing their panties, wearing little to nothing. There is not sense of value and maybe Islam gives you a sense of value and worthiness. :pumpheart:

naturalmama
08-22-2003, 10:29 PM
Peace,

I am late to this discussion but I dont think there is one reason that Blacks come to Islam. Maybe when people like when my parents came into it , it was a rebellion against christianity and white supremecy there is a definite African American slant to it.

Now adays it is so complecated. I have seen in the NE people treating Islam like it a game, keeping the same loose morals and acting like gang members. Then you have that come for the reason of Tawhid. The true oneness of God and leaving the Trinity. Some come for the sense of brotherhood they may have experienced.

I will say that in america today there is great arabization of Islam due to the influence of Saudi Arabia. But there are many scholars (Amina Wadud, Khalid Abu El Fadl) who are shedding the light on that and how Islam does not mean you have to loose your culture.

That my $.02
naturalmama

Twistednkinky
08-23-2003, 04:09 AM
Originally posted by Cassandra@Aug 22 2003, 01:30 PM
I am a Christian........
Cassandra.....

For me to say that you have a right to your own opinion, asserts arrogance on my part....but I will accept that! I realize that you do not need my validation for your opinion, but I really would be remiss if I did not say something, I hope you don't mind! And if you disagree.....please do tell!

But with one broad stroke you have painted a very negative picture of ALL Christians and Christianity, in parts of your posts, which really does add fuel to this already heated debate. And in the same breath, you have made some assertion about Islam which may or may not be true for all! :unsure:

You said:


One thing, Islam has given black people a sense of self love.

Has Islam given all Black people a sense of self love?

And is self-love limited to Islam?

Do you as a Christian not have love for self, as it relates to a greater love for the Creator who sees you as being fearfully and wonderfully made?


One thing, Islam and Judisam, there is a sense of morality, which Christianity has lost, which is sad.

Just so that I am clear.....are you referring to the Nation Of Islam, Sunnis, Shi'ites, Sufis....who? :unsure:

Please explain how Christianity has lost a sense of morality?

And could you not make that same assertion of any religious group? I bet that you could, if you are focusing on wo/man who is unbelievable fallible?

As a Christian, I don't look to wo/man for example and I hope they are not fixated on me, because I am constantly falling short! I look to Jesus as the example and rely on God's grace and mercy to sustain me.


The meaning less sex, the one night stands, no self control, non-committment, is something, which is destroying society, maybe Islam and Judisam is giving back people their conscience.

<span style='color:purple'>Is the ^^^above what you assert as being a "lost sense of morality in Christianity?" Do you not think that this type of behavior does not occur in other religions?

I am sure that this argument (your thoughts above) could be made across the board about any religion, by any person who does not subscribe to *organized religion*?

Maybe Islam and Judaism is giving back people their conscience?.....In saying that, Are you saying that Christianity does not require personal accountability or that Christianity does not give Christians back *our* conscience?

Well, I could point out several areas in the bible that calls us to be morally responsible, but what is fresh in my mind is Galatians 5:16-26, 6:10.


I am a Christian and I admire the how the Muslim women dress, specially African women, they dress stylish and elegent. The Muslim women walk with a sense of pride, while some Christian women seem pleased to behave and treat themselves less than how they are, with the short skirts which are more like belts, showing their panties, wearing little to nothing. There is not sense of value and maybe Islam gives you a sense of value and worthiness.

<span style='color:purple'>I too am a Christian and I too admire and appreciate the modest garb adorned by some Muslim women.

Okay now I see your use of the word some......Nevertheless, when you make such judgements about the Christian women that you have come in contact with (I&#39;m assuming at the church you attend or churches you have visited?), how do you know that the attire that they are wearing is NOT all that they have to wear, albeit inappropriate by your criticism?

And if the attire that you described is *less than appropriate*, why hasn&#39;t either the Pastor or other women of the church addressed this matter privately with the Christian women you described (now I am assuming this is at the church you attend) or have they?

As for your other thoughts about some Christian women not "behaving and treating themselves less than they are"......I don&#39;t think this is an issue (low self-esteem/lack of self-worth) that is limited to Christianity. I am sure that you could find women with these particular issues in any religion?

I have struggled with low self-esteem and lack of self-love pre-conversion and post-conversion. I have been known to wallow in sin and wade in the sea of self-doubt. I believe that my past battle with my hair is a testament to not really knowing and fully appreciating all that God created me to be!

^^Struggling with with lack of self-love, self-acceptance and self-awareness was a clear indicator that I was not treating myself as I should and places me in a similar category as the ladies you described. My lack of self-control and discipline.....also places me in the same category as the ladies you described.

I readily admit in those moments, I was not recognizing who I was/am in Christ....which is more than a conqueror and I say that the same is true of those women you described....they too are more than conquerors, even though they may not be walking and talking as such!

*me getting of my mini soapbox*

Back to my questions........

Does Christianity not provide you with a sense of value? Or were you speaking of the Christian women (<<<some) you described as not having a sense of value? And again, does Christianity not offer a sense of value and worthiness to you? And can it not do the same for the women you described?

Just curious?......Please do tell!

Cassandra
08-23-2003, 06:26 AM
Originally posted by Twistednkinky+Aug 23 2003, 04:09 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Twistednkinky @ Aug 23 2003, 04:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cassandra@Aug 22 2003, 01:30 PM
I am a Christian........
Cassandra.....

For me to say that you have a right to your own opinion, asserts arrogance on my part....but I will accept that! I realize that you do not need my validation for your opinion, but I really would be remiss if I did not say something, I hope you don&#39;t mind! And if you disagree.....please do tell!

But with one broad stroke you have painted a very negative picture of ALL Christians and Christianity, in parts of your posts, which really does add fuel to this already heated debate. And in the same breath, you have made some assertion about Islam which may or may not be true for all! :unsure:

You said:


One thing, Islam has given black people a sense of self love.

Has Islam given all Black people a sense of self love?

And is self-love limited to Islam?

Do you as a Christian not have love for self, as it relates to a greater love for the Creator who sees you as being fearfully and wonderfully made?


One thing, Islam and Judisam, there is a sense of morality, which Christianity has lost, which is sad.

Just so that I am clear.....are you referring to the Nation Of Islam, Sunnis, Shi&#39;ites, Sufis....who? :unsure:

Please explain how Christianity has lost a sense of morality?

And could you not make that same assertion of any religious group? I bet that you could, if you are focusing on wo/man who is unbelievable fallible?

As a Christian, I don&#39;t look to wo/man for example and I hope they are not fixated on me, because I am constantly falling short! I look to Jesus as the example and rely on God&#39;s grace and mercy to sustain me.


The meaning less sex, the one night stands, no self control, non-committment, is something, which is destroying society, maybe Islam and Judisam is giving back people their conscience.

<span style='color:purple'>Is the ^^^above what you assert as being a "lost sense of morality in Christianity?" Do you not think that this type of behavior does not occur in other religions?

I am sure that this argument (your thoughts above) could be made across the board about any religion, by any person who does not subscribe to *organized religion*?

Maybe Islam and Judaism is giving back people their conscience?.....In saying that, Are you saying that Christianity does not require personal accountability or that Christianity does not give Christians back *our* conscience?

Well, I could point out several areas in the bible that calls us to be morally responsible, but what is fresh in my mind is Galatians 5:16-26, 6:10.


I am a Christian and I admire the how the Muslim women dress, specially African women, they dress stylish and elegent. The Muslim women walk with a sense of pride, while some Christian women seem pleased to behave and treat themselves less than how they are, with the short skirts which are more like belts, showing their panties, wearing little to nothing. There is not sense of value and maybe Islam gives you a sense of value and worthiness.

<span style='color:purple'>I too am a Christian and I too admire and appreciate the modest garb adorned by some Muslim women.

Okay now I see your use of the word some......Nevertheless, when you make such judgements about the Christian women that you have come in contact with (I&#39;m assuming at the church you attend or churches you have visited?), how do you know that the attire that they are wearing is NOT all that they have to wear, albeit inappropriate by your criticism?

And if the attire that you described is *less than appropriate*, why hasn&#39;t either the Pastor or other women of the church addressed this matter privately with the Christian women you described (now I am assuming this is at the church you attend) or have they?

As for your other thoughts about some Christian women not "behaving and treating themselves less than they are"......I don&#39;t think this is an issue (low self-esteem/lack of self-worth) that is limited to Christianity. I am sure that you could find women with these particular issues in any religion?

I have struggled with low self-esteem and lack of self-love pre-conversion and post-conversion. I have been known to wallow in sin and wade in the sea of self-doubt. I believe that my past battle with my hair is a testament to not really knowing and fully appreciating all that God created me to be!

^^Struggling with with lack of self-love, self-acceptance and self-awareness was a clear indicator that I was not treating myself as I should and places me in a similar category as the ladies you described. My lack of self-control and discipline.....also places me in the same category as the ladies you described.

I readily admit in those moments, I was not recognizing who I was/am in Christ....which is more than a conqueror and I say that the same is true of those women you described....they too are more than conquerors, even though they may not be walking and talking as such!

*me getting of my mini soapbox*

Back to my questions........

Does Christianity not provide you with a sense of value? Or were you speaking of the Christian women (<<<some) you described as not having a sense of value? And again, does Christianity not offer a sense of value and worthiness to you? And can it not do the same for the women you described?

Just curious?......Please do tell!

[/b][/quote]
I really don&#39;t think you have read my post carefully. I have not painted a negative pictures of all Christians, because I am still in the faith. But why are Blacks converting to Islam. Why are people leaving Christianity to convert to Islam. Something about Islam is appealing to them. I can only speak for the UK, which I was born and brought up in. In the UK, a lot of people are not happy about the morals of our society. I am a mother of a 15 year old teenage girl. I am very worried about the sexual permissiveness of the society here, which is very sad and very dangerous, thereis a very rise in sexual transmitted diseases. Some of our men have 7 baby mothers, I know this, I have met them. I have met baby mothers who have five children for five different men.. And the others are walking death traps. I am 42, at school, losing your virginity at the age of sixteen, was the big thing. No-one, not the teachers ever talked about valuing yourself, waiting under you feel that you are in a loving relationship, all the talk was using condoms. The teenage magazines talk about having safe sex use of condoms, how many people actually said to both sexs. Let&#39;s take our time, now we can say, we must let parents talk to their children, how many parents talk to their children.

I really feel very sorry for the young people, I honesty do, it was very difficult for me, and with no guidance God help these children. There for the Grace of God go I. I am very grateful that I had a strong mother, and she was a spiritual Christian, this is the exact same conversation I was having with my friend, she is also a mother of two children and she has her 19 year old niece living with her. These young people have no moral guidance what so ever.

In the UK, there is no balance, everything is do to an extreme, do to the excess, the clubbing, the drinking, the smoking, the sex. Things are out of control. Now finally, in Greece a girl was jailed for taking off her bikini top, for 8 months, because the people were fed up of the non-stop drinking, drunking behaviour and the wild sex, why those girls go to Ibiza, etc, how many of them get raped, or are sexually assaulted, how many of those young men end up in hospital or die of drug or alcholic overdose or poisoning. Christian parents who talk and complain about these problems are shot down with arrows. Look at the media, they admire, people who behave like slappers (whores men and women), but people who are married to the same wife and who are faithful, the media fines them freaks. Tony Blair has been married to his wife for many years, because she had a child at the age of 45, the papers made a big fuss, because he is still having sex with his wife, however if he had a mistress, he would be congratulated. Freddy Mercury was moaned with he died so young, however, he lived life to the excess, I agree with living life to the full, but these people are crazy. Freddy Mercury&#39;s friend said "Freddy like to burn the candle at both ends and in the middle. I have seen women go out of their way to sleep with married celebrities, they hunt them down like it&#39;s their mission in life and why they sleep with them, they sell their story and they get a big pay,ex-boyfriends, partners sell their stories about how their ex-partners liked their sex, if their story was printed and the paper decided to pay these these people any money, maybe that business venture may come to an end.

This is what is happening now, even the way, why are teenaged girls are encouraged to wear little or nothing, or tight skimpy clothes. Why do female singers feel they have to wear tight, skimpy clothes and showing their tongs, they have singing voice, don&#39;t they? The running argument I have had with my daughter for the last two years is about wearing crops tops, she wants to wear the crops, with are cut very low, so low. We are constantly told that sex sells. That is why it is so refreshing that see people like Jill Scot, Miss Dynamite who sing and don&#39;t wear short skirts half way up their backside, why we need to see their panties or tongs. Women can wear stylish clothes, but they don&#39;t need to look like slappers. Look at the Hip Hop videos, look at those women there. It is refreshing to see Craig David, Nas, who are not having girls not wearing hardly anything.

I have self love and something about Christianity is still holding me. In the Christian world, we really need to stop still and take breath and talk about committment in a loving marriage, many of our religious leaders stay silent. There is no leadership, there is a problem.

Twistednkinky
08-23-2003, 07:19 AM
I have self love and something about Christianity is still holding me. In the Christian world, we really need to stop still and take breath and talk about committment in a loving marriage, many of our religious leaders stay silent. There is no leadership, there is a problem.

Hey Sis,

I would like to comment to the above, so I will just come back to it! ;)

First, thank you for your very comprehensive reply. I really appreciate the time that you took to offer clarity and to engage in an exchange of ideas and purposeful dialogue! :pumpheart:

I believe that I read your post carefully. As I stated:


But with one broad stroke you have painted a very negative picture of ALL Christians and Christianity, in parts of your posts, which really does add fuel to this already heated debate

<span style='color:purple'>I also recognize the use of the word SOME in the latter portion of your original posts. I guess we will just have to respectfully agree to disagree about your original post. I would never presume to tell you what you meant or how you feel? It is just that your post reads slightly different the explanation that you offered, which does provide me a better understanding of where you are coming from.

Perhaps, I am just hyper-sensitive......as I have read one too many posts or threads where Christianity has not been looked upon favorable by *others*! And I too have been critical of the way *some* of us practice the faith that I readily profess......so with that I just move on, sorta! ;) It does not matter what other people think of Christianity....it is where I find my truth! Their truth is their truth....just as mine is mine! :)

Cassandra,

I wanted to come back to the very conclusion of your post! And my going to the conclusion of your post does not imply agreement or disagreement to the rest......it is simply the conclusion that really resonates with me.

My husband and I were talking about the lack of leadership in some Christian churches today. And how many of the leaders of the church choose to be silent, instead of speaking up or against sins of omission and commission! I really believe many of the churches that the Apostle Paul writes about and addresses accurately depict many of the churches today, sadly! :(

And it seems that many (not all)Pastors are simple not willing to deliver those "toe-steppin on sermons" and would much rather deliver the "feel good jump and shout" ones to keep the collection plates full and overflowing! :(

Anyway, I could go on and on :blahblah:, but as it is already.....I have veered from the original topic! So I will just stop and say thank you for your reply ! And I look forward to more exchanges with you!

My apologies to the original poster for the sidebar! I still do not have anything of value to add to the original discussion, because I don&#39;t believe that the original discussion was about the NOI, but rather the Sunni, Shi&#39;ites, or Suffis.

Carry on!