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bluephiyah
08-02-2006, 08:32 AM
ronald fryer, a harvard economist, and a black man, has done a study of students to find out 1) whether "acting white" is a measurable phenomena and 2) what effect does "acting white" have on black students. here's his abstract:

"There is a debate among social scientists regarding the existence of a peer externality commonly referred to as acting white. Using a newly available data set (the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health), which allows one to construct an objective measure of a students popularity, we demonstrate that there are large racial differences in the relationship between popularity and academic achievement; our (albeit narrow) definition of acting white. The effect is intensified among high achievers and in schools with more interracial contact, but non-existent among students in predominantly black schools or private schools. The patterns in the data appear most consistent with a two audience signaling model in which investments in education are thought to be indicative of an individuals opportunity costs of peer group loyalty. Other models we consider, such as self-sabotage among black youth or the presence of an oppositional culture, all contradict the data in important ways."

what i find interesting is the idea that effects of "acting white" lessen in more homogenous surroundings, or a school thats dedicated to academic achievement. so my questions are:

do you believe in "acting white", regardless of this study?
if you had/have kids, would this motivate you to sending them to a place where theyll be surrounded by faculty, administration, and students that look like them, so maybe the "acting white" phenomena wont sweep them up?
would you fight the "oppositional culture" and "self-sabotage" in/against your child(ren)?

lastly, a link/pdf file of his report. its about 55 pages or so: http://post.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/...yer_torelli.pdf (http://post.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/fryer/papers/fryer_torelli.pdf)

GalaxyGirl2012
08-02-2006, 08:38 AM
nope don't believe it. and i got made fun of for "acting white" even when i was in grade school and went to all black schools. i guess i didnt get the memo that watching mtv, reading comic books, writing short stories and liking school was for whites only.

and if i ever have kids i'll be sending them to the best school i can- white black, chinese or whatever.

sunshine21
08-02-2006, 08:42 AM
"Acting White" Can I say that if you believe in this your "Acting Stupid". How can we subject our children to such racial seperation. If he talks proper let him talk proper, if he plays chess let him play chess. As long as he is not trying to be a member of the KKK then I am "down" with "acting white" PERIOD. There is no one way educated individuals of any race "act" Just let people and their kids be who they are.

emerald06
08-02-2006, 08:55 AM
I believe that if a child's parents value education and the child sees that, a child will not succumb to peer pressure to "act black" by underachieving. If a child only sees white children achieving and black children underachieving with no reinforcement at home that they are EXPECTED to get A's in school, then of course the child will give up.

My husband and I have already decided that whatever the (good) schools we send our children to will be a mere starting point. We believe education continues in the home. We are currently collecting a number of books that will supplement what the traditional school system may miss. You learn European world history at school? Well, you will learn African and Asian world history at home.

My child's education is much too important to leave only to teachers and other children. I can't imagine being uninvolved in the process.

bluephiyah
08-02-2006, 08:56 AM
this report isnt about speaking properly or raising of hands, necessarily. its more about the effects/affects of "acting white" on black students. for example, black students who "act white" are not as popular in schools, which may lead to "self-sabotage" and the embracing of that "oppositional culture" to be more popular. the report goes on to say that coolness stops and whiteness begins at a 3.5gpa for black students, a 2.5 for hispanic ones.

i dont mean to rehash old "oreo" memories for people. i know most of us have them. i was just interested in responses to the report and what it tries to prove. :)

iandi
08-02-2006, 08:57 AM
"Acting White" Can I say that if you believe in this your "Acting Stupid". How can we subject our children to such racial seperation. If he talks proper let him talk proper, if he plays chess let him play chess. As long as he is not trying to be a member of the KKK then I am "down" with "acting white" PERIOD. There is no one way educated individuals of any race "act" Just let people and their kids be who they are.
[/b]


That's right.

GalaxyGirl2012
08-02-2006, 09:50 AM
thanks blue :)

Thats very interesting about the self sabotage. I know of several people I went to school with who "dumbed themselves down" to avoid being picked on. Unfortunately, these people remembered that behavior when they entered high school and college :(

i definitely saw that ALOT. it's funny because the college I went to was 7 sistsrs predominantly white. There was a huge rule in the school that people's grades and well (or poorly) they did was always confidential. This wasbecause alot of people got to point where you were ashamed to do well because you'd get mercilessly teased as either being a nerd or teacher's pet.

It's amazing how much our society seems to value physical labor or educational labor. Not to say one is better than the other, but it seems that in this country, hard physical labor and work is seen as being more valuable than educational hard work.

Sorry didn't mean to get off post too much, but I think this phenomenon is definitely deeply ingrained in our american culture where people with educations are untrustworthy and negro with an education is doubly untrustworthy.

birdflyingaway
08-02-2006, 09:54 AM
:rolleyes: with all the shyt i went through in school for "acting white" i don&#39;t even care to know a single thing about this man&#39;s "research" if you can even call it that. i know what the effects/affects of it are. i don&#39;t need some idiot to tell me what&#39;s what. <_<

Urbanite
08-02-2006, 10:05 AM
this report isnt about speaking properly or raising of hands, necessarily. its more about the effects/affects of "acting white" on black students. for example, black students who "act white" are not as popular in schools, which may lead to "self-sabotage" and the embracing of that "oppositional culture" to be more popular. the report goes on to say that coolness stops and whiteness begins at a 3.5gpa for black students, a 2.5 for hispanic ones.

i dont mean to rehash old "oreo" memories for people. i know most of us have them. i was just interested in responses to the report and what it tries to prove. :)
[/b]

I got what you were saying. :) I do agree that, in some cases, intelligent and academically capable Black adolescents will do a "self-sabatoge" in order to be considered "cool" or "popular." I went to a predominantly Black private school where it was cool to be smart and get good grades; "dumb" people were made fun of. However, my sisters attend predominantly Black public schools and in most cases it is not "cool" to be "smart," though I am not sure if it&#39;s because "being smart" is seen as "acting white." Usually, accusations of "acting white" stem from musical choices and speaking nasally.

emerald06
08-02-2006, 10:16 AM
I guess what I am getting at is that I don&#39;t want my children to use that to build up or wreck their self-esteem. Let&#39;s say, hypothetically, that in my child&#39;s school the popular black kids have a 1.8 GPA. No, I don&#39;t want my children ostrasized, but I don&#39;t want their self-esteem to depend solely on what their peers think of them. I want them to think it&#39;s "normal" for black people to learn new things just to learn them. I want them to think it&#39;s "normal" for black people to be interested in and participate in a number of activities. That way, they learn that they have value and talent, so they are not as affected by those 1.8-GPA-having cool kids.

bluephiyah
08-02-2006, 10:17 AM
galaxy and urbanite, i saw the self-sabotage in elementary school (when i was really teased regarding school) but i knew i couldnt participate. my mommy&#39;d whoop my azz. . .and i knew that. i dont know if fryer&#39;s report takes such familial situations into consideration. but when i went to the predominately white high school, EVERYONE&#39;S grades were confidential. no one would be teased for being a gradegrubbing teachers pet, or the stupid jock who got out of the test cause theres a lacrosse game coming up. i guess more at stake, the more you keep it confidential.

bird, i hope i didnt bring up bad memories. :)

emerald06
08-02-2006, 10:23 AM
I never knew anyone who dumbed themselves down, but I was ostracized. In my school, everyone was divided into tracks: voc tech, college prep, and program challenge. I was in program challenge, so although no one knew my grades, everyone knew I was one of the smart ones. I think what kept me going was that I had friends who knew me , I participated in a lot of clubs and band, and I knew that there was so much more to life than what people in my podunk town thought of me. I hope to instill the same lessons in my children.

naturalbeliever
08-02-2006, 10:36 AM
I never knew anyone who dumbed themselves down, but I was ostracized. In my school, everyone was divided into tracks: voc tech, college prep, and program challenge. I was in program challenge, so although no one knew my grades, everyone knew I was one of the smart ones. I think what kept me going was that I had friends who knew me , I participated in a lot of clubs and band, and I knew that there was so much more to life than what people in my podunk town thought of me. I hope to instill the same lessons in my children.
[/b]
I agree it is a selfesteem issue in some cases. When I was in the 6th grade, I got tired of all of my friends making fun of me for being an advanced class. Poor self-esteem. The teacher had also been my teacher in 5th grade, so she knew me pretty well. We had to take some sort of test at the beginning of the year and I purposely failed mine in an attempt to get back to class with my "buddies." A week later, a few kids who failed the test were transfered out of the program. When she passed my test back to me with the failed grade, she leaned down and looked me straight in the eye and said, "You were more than capable of passing this test. I don&#39;t know why you failed, but I will not let you leave this class. This is where you belong, and if this is the work you choose to turn in, then you will fail the class." That was my wake up call, &#39;cause mama wasn&#39;t havin&#39; NONE of that!!!

LBellatrix
08-02-2006, 01:35 PM
i saw the self-sabotage in elementary school (when i was really teased regarding school) but i knew i couldnt participate. my mommy&#39;d whoop my azz. . .and i knew that.
[/b]

Okay??? :lol: I was FAR more scared of my parents than I was of my peers. They did that on purpose too.


The teacher had also been my teacher in 5th grade, so she knew me pretty well. We had to take some sort of test at the beginning of the year and I purposely failed mine in an attempt to get back to class with my "buddies." A week later, a few kids who failed the test were transfered out of the program. When she passed my test back to me with the failed grade, she leaned down and looked me straight in the eye and said, "You were more than capable of passing this test. I don&#39;t know why you failed, but I will not let you leave this class. This is where you belong, and if this is the work you choose to turn in, then you will fail the class." That was my wake up call, &#39;cause mama wasn&#39;t havin&#39; NONE of that!!![/b]

And here&#39;s the other influence: Teachers who are paying attention.

Adults who know better need to set the example for kids so that they don&#39;t buy into the notion that education (or anything else for that matter) is something that exclusively belongs to whites or other nonblacks.

Rootstar
08-02-2006, 02:11 PM
so hold on let me get this right.. if your doing well at school your acting white but if your as thick as pigs s**t then your black? What piece of **** is this? That sounds like colonised mind thinking to me.

What children need is to be armed with the right vocabulary to give to their obviously low self esteem/ under achieving peers to tell them about their slack working in Macdonalds shelf stacker wananbee selves!!

I got teased at school for being too small, then for getting the top mark in maths out of the thick set(!), then for being able to draw well and always being asked to do school murals and posters, etc etc. If i knew then what i know now, if someone had told me about self esteem and that these kids only pick on you because they&#39;re jelouse/ can&#39;t be arsed then i would of had nuff to say!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

bluephiyah
08-02-2006, 02:30 PM
i think its interesting i and others point to parents that stopped the self-sabotage and/or possible looking to those "oppositional cultures". anyone have any fellow students that helped stop them/stood up for them/etc?

also, do you all think that parents alone could negate the "acting white" phenomena? (mine sure did). i didnt have too many friends in early elementary school grades telling me it was ok to be smart. friends of mine didnt really start defending my honor roll status until 7th and up.

GalaxyGirl2012
08-02-2006, 02:45 PM
blue, i think parents and family is the key. not only to self esteem in general but also for this topic as well. i&#39;m sure most of us who got teased for acting white by our peers also got the threat of bodily harm from our parents if we dumbed ourselves dow. of course i&#39;m sure we also got the explanation as to why education was so important but the threat of the switch holds a bit more sway :lol: especially when you dont think it&#39;s fair when the other kids are out hanging out at the mall and you have to stay in the library reading.

i didnt get encouragement from my peers until i reached college and grad school.

and heck yeah i think parents alone can counteract anything. kids need support. support from parents and family grossly outweighs any peer pressure, IMO.

Delusious
08-02-2006, 04:59 PM
do you believe in "acting white", regardless of this study?
if you had/have kids, would this motivate you to sending them to a place where theyll be surrounded by faculty, administration, and students that look like them, so maybe the "acting white" phenomena wont sweep them up?
would you fight the "oppositional culture" and "self-sabotage" in/against your child(ren)?
[/b]

I don&#39;t understand what you mean by "believe in acting white": (a) Do I believe kids say this to each other? Yes; or Do I believe it effects the kids who hear it? Yes; or c) Do I think school system administrators, college admission and job interviewers, judges in academic competitions, etc. may confer benefits on a black kid who is "acting white"? Yes; or (d) Do I think it is appropriate to label good grades and student government participation as "white" activities? Of course not -- But, do I think there is some cultural basis one can hang this argument on, no matter how reprehensible I personally find it? Yes.

My dream is to send my kids to a predominantly Black or Minority school for high-achieving or intelligent youth where they will have an opportunity to form lifelong friendships and be somewhat freer from the racist attitudes and assumptions that majority-run schools might have against them or their friends. I dont want anybody in a position of power telling my little over-achiever they&#39;re "different" from other kids.

I would severly punish any self-sabatoging activities my kids were doing, and try my very best to stop it.

Poetic_Butterfly
08-02-2006, 05:08 PM
I think ther is no such thing as acting white. I think that you can be intelligent and behave like you have some sense and maintain you idenity.

I think that as long as parents raise their children with balance and positive influences including the understanding of culture things will work out.

Peace,
Rasta

bluephiyah
08-02-2006, 05:33 PM
delushious, i meant "believe in &#39;acting white&#39;" in the sense of do you believe in the phenomenon of "acting white", particularly as presented in fryer&#39;s study. not like believe in "acting white" the way some believe in jesus. i hope that makes sense.

galaxy, id like to believe parents alone can combat the whole "acting white" thing, but peers and peer pressure are just so strong sometimes. the fact that fryer used peer-identified popularity measurements helps proves such.

rasta, i believe people can be intelligent and maintain their identities also. but these are highschool and juniorhigh kids, im sure some/most may not see that bigger picture

ladies, thank you so much for your responses and not thinking i was trying to start some hatefest. :)

GalaxyGirl2012
08-02-2006, 06:37 PM
delushious, i meant "believe in &#39;acting white&#39;" in the sense of do you believe in the phenomenon of "acting white", particularly as presented in fryer&#39;s study. not like believe in "acting white" the way some believe in jesus. i hope that makes sense.

galaxy, id like to believe parents alone can combat the whole "acting white" thing, but peers and peer pressure are just so strong sometimes. the fact that fryer used peer-identified popularity measurements helps proves such.


ladies, thank you so much for your responses and not thinking i was trying to start some hatefest. :)
[/b]
:lol: @ the hatefest. i didnt get that impression at all. if anything, you got us all rocking back and forth in corner remembering the bad ole days when we were teased and humiliated!

I definitely think that the study is on to something by correlating peer pressure and fear of being accused of "acting white". peer pressure can be very hard to deal with. i know for me i was too afraid of being knocked into next week - or worse the disappointed :( look i&#39;d get.

two things i&#39;d be interested to see
1) the influence of parents and family in these kids lives and how much of an interest parents are taking in their kids.

2)a study that would try to determine the impact of keeping grades confidential.

Morenaza
08-02-2006, 07:56 PM
this report isnt about speaking properly or raising of hands, necessarily. its more about the effects/affects of "acting white" on black students. for example, black students who "act white" are not as popular in schools, which may lead to "self-sabotage" and the embracing of that "oppositional culture" to be more popular. the report goes on to say that coolness stops and whiteness begins at a 3.5gpa for black students, a 2.5 for hispanic ones.

i dont mean to rehash old "oreo" memories for people. i know most of us have them. i was just interested in responses to the report and what it tries to prove. :)
[/b]


What you say about self-sabotage is very interesting.

I was usually in the top 5 percent of my class. I was also one of only a few black people in my school. I was the ONLY black honors student in my class (and possibly in my school); again, there weren&#39;t many to begin with. What did this mean?: That I had very few black friends because I was never “down enough”. I did not use slang and I was an overachiever. All of my friends were overachievers (my parents instilled the importance of being around like-minded people). This was never a problem for me because I&#39;ve always had a diverse group of non-black friends who were also first generation Americans like me. Nonetheless, unfortunately, in predominantly white environment black youth either end up being ostracized by their own for being overachievers or they end up in the non-black camp, not necessarily by choice.


This summer I worked for an academic enrichment program for disadvantaged children and/or youth of color. My students submitted essays for me to review and provide feedback. I was appalled by the level of writing exhibited by 11th graders--and I&#39;m talking about students of ALL ethnic backgrounds. I don&#39;t know what teachers are doing these days in the classroom, but our schools are producing a generation of illiterate youth. What is also frustrating is that these children bring the same bad grammar and slang into the classroom that they would normally use among their friends and family members. It is sad and an embarrassment. Most of these youth (and adults) do not even know that they are inarticulate, which makes it worse.

I also heard that (white) professors at the university are afraid to correct black students (who bring the bad grammar into the classroom) for fear of being slapped with law suits. ( I take issue with this since I attended a private liberal arts college and EVERYONE graduated knowing how to write, regardless of race; writing was a priority at my institution whether you were a science or humanities major.) So, here, we have students making it through college (or flunking out because they cannot produce articulate, thorough papers), not being corrected or coached to become better public speakers and writers. These same illiterate adults go into job interviews not being able to articulate themselves properly. We are in a sad state of affairs. And we are worried about whether we are acting white?

nappysurgeon
08-02-2006, 09:57 PM
In the book, Freakonomics, the author proposed that blacks began giving their children unique names to keep their black identify and make it diffcult for their children to act white. I&#39;m dark skinned with nappy hair and decent grammar. Why do I have to prove that I&#39;m black? Maybe Eminem is not "acting black". Maybe we are all expressing the different behaviors of Americans.

bluephiyah
08-03-2006, 07:02 AM
We are in a sad state of affairs. And we are worried about whether we are acting white?
[/b]


yes. not only because fryer&#39;s report is the topic of this thread, but hopefully, armed with some of the knowledge in this report, we can stop the "self-sabotage" fryer outlines before these students make it to college and become walking illiterates. maybe they wont care what theyre peers think of their 3.75gpa, maybe itll actually be cool to be smart. hip to be a square, even. :)

nappysurgreon, i gotta find that book. that sounds re-godd@mn-diculous. :(

Clarissa359
08-03-2006, 08:37 AM
I didn&#39;t know that there was &#39;white&#39; behavior that can be quantified or measured empirical.

naturalbeliever
08-03-2006, 09:35 AM
Very interesting points of view - please keep it going, ladies :pop:

bluephiyah
08-03-2006, 09:38 AM
I didn&#39;t know that there was &#39;white&#39; behavior that can be quantified or measured empirical.
[/b]

the article explains that these are not "white" behaviors, so to speak, but behaviors that black students usually ascribe to their white counterparts: raising hands, answering questions, participating in class, excelling, etc. fryer&#39;s report attempts to empirically measure the /affects effects of "acting white" on black students, specifically peer popularity.

Rootstar
08-03-2006, 10:39 AM
Support from peers? Your &#39;avin a laugh!!

Young african children need to understand firstly society expects that they will be stupid so don&#39;t give them what they want and act stupid, and secondly if they want the car the clothes the house etc then your not going to get it self stacking at Tesco or being cheif fryer at Maccy D&#39;s

Who invented its cool to do badly at school?

bluephiyah
08-03-2006, 06:40 PM
Who invented its cool to do badly at school?
[/b]

kids. its commonly called "peer pressure". :)

Rootstar
08-04-2006, 05:32 AM
kids. its commonly called "peer pressure". :)
[/b]

But why? Do you think it started with one ballsy not so bright kid saying "well if i don&#39;t get it then i&#39;m going to make my friend feel bad if he does get it"?.

Basically it all comes down to self vindication and self esteem. The black children who do well in school and go far in life (and there are many) need to be brought forth as examples.

We really can&#39;t allow this "acting white" thing to take hold because in the greater scheme of things it keeps our community down and in slums which is where they want us.

bluephiyah
08-04-2006, 06:11 AM
But why?[/b]

i dont know. but peer pressure in the form of black students calling out other students for "acting black" is what fryer&#39;s report seeks to quantify.

Delusious
08-04-2006, 10:27 AM
IMHO, I think "acting white" is a reflection of kids attacking anything that is different than the "norm", which, obviously, is NOT bright or overacheiving (or else such behavior would constitute the norm"). [I was glad to see the study referred to overachievers of all backgrounds being harassed in the footnotes - it aint just a Black Thang]
Kids ostracize each other for many reasons (perceived homosexuality, unusual style of dress, lack of athletic abilities), and I just think in a racist society that ostracization from your own minority racial group is particularly damaging to a child in an integrated enviornment. So thats why a kid will do anything, incl. self sabatoge, to conform (something like when kids who KNOW they are gay have a boyf/girlf just to fit in?).

detshorty05
08-04-2006, 12:52 PM
I&#39;ve been accused of being an oreo: Black on the outside, white on the inside. I don&#39;t really care anymore. If being smart, talking proper english, and liking alternative music is "acting white" then sorry. I&#39;m just being me.

abnyc
08-04-2006, 01:52 PM
IMHO, I think "acting white" is a reflection of kids attacking anything that is different than the "norm", which, obviously, is NOT bright or overacheiving (or else such behavior would constitute the norm"). [I was glad to see the study referred to overachievers of all backgrounds being harassed in the footnotes - it aint just a Black Thang]
Kids ostracize each other for many reasons (perceived homosexuality, unusual style of dress, lack of athletic abilities), and I just think in a racist society that ostracization from your own minority racial group is particularly damaging to a child in an integrated enviornment. So thats why a kid will do anything, incl. self sabatoge, to conform (something like when kids who KNOW they are gay have a boyf/girlf just to fit in?).
[/b]

I just wanna add a resounding Yup! I was one of 4 black kids in my class in highschool. This was a very expensive private international school and the teasing of smart kids of every race got so bad in the 11th grade that we had to have a "negative peer pressure" lecture from the assistant headmaster. Kids will attack anyone who sticks out and on the other hand most kids will do almost anything to fit in. The high cost of the school meant that most parents (including mine) were pressuring their kids to do well. But there were a few kids who had given up on the possibility for academic achievement who decided to give the smart kids a hard time whenever they raised their hands or got good marks on an exam or paper. I was never teased for acting "white" by my school mates but it was very clear that I didn&#39;t always meet their expectations for how a "black" student should act (besides the fact that I was poor and there on scholarship)

Elementary school and summer jobs were different. There I was in majority black environments where unfortunately my peers had internalized racist stereotypes of blackness and I was teased for "talkin&#39; white" and being smart. Luckily I had my parents who taught me to be black was to be proud and to always try to be my best. But honestly it was hard to always remember what my parents had taught me while I was feeling like an outsider.

GalaxyGirl2012
08-04-2006, 02:03 PM
it&#39;s amazing how we are the only country to have the phenomenom of where it&#39;s cool to not be smart. i call it the US cult of stupidity. And we wonder why our kids do so poorly on tests and why we&#39;re lagging behind other countries in education.

xayide79
08-04-2006, 02:17 PM
I&#39;d like to read more details about this study. I&#39;ve read a lot of related literature (stereotype threat and psychological disengagement studies cover a lot of the same ground), but I&#39;m curious about the methodology of this particular study.

I watched my high school boyfriend dumb himself down to keep up appearances for his boys. He was very smart and excelled in Latin. He refused to take AP Latin or even consider trying to get into any college above the local third tier public school when he probably could have gotten into any university in the college. We ended up breaking up over it because I couldn&#39;t understand it.

While I was in school - elementary through high - I was picked on and called every name in the book because I was smart, I did well in school, and I could not stay out of a book. I had the support and encouragement from home both to keep excelling, set high expectations AND guidance to help me learn who I should bother listening to. As much as we need to emphasize the importance of education and effort amoung our children, we also need to teach them to figure out who their real friends are and who is worth listening to.

Lady_Day87
08-05-2006, 06:18 PM
OMG "acting white" that brings back memories. I was called that to my face and I am quite sure behind my back as well. I don&#39;t understand why black folks want to associate speaking proper english, making good grades, having positive extracurricular activities as acting white.

I really would like to know how you measure blackness cuz at the end of the day we are all running the same race so way are some of us trying to trip others up.
I for one refuse to ever dumb myself down to fit some ridiculous idea of "blackness"

I went to predominately white schools all my life and there were a few kids that would make comments but for the most part the rest of my black peers never hassled me . I was really blessed to find friends through out my educational career that were on the same page as me and shared that same mind set that being successful in school is wonderful.

I be a monkey&#39;s mama if I ever walked through my door and have an F on a report card. My daddy would beat me, my mom, my aunt (who is a teacher), my uncle, my grandmother, my great aunt (a teacher), and my cousin (a teacher). I mean I am almost 20 and I probably would still get my azz beat for an F.

I am going into my second year of college at a predominately white school, and I have not encountered any of the "acting white" bs. Academic sucess should be the rule not the exception among blacks. I don&#39;t know why some of us want to set ourselves and the children up for failure.

naturalbeliever
08-05-2006, 07:16 PM
:smil3f72836ee752e:

it&#39;s amazing how we are the only country to have the phenomenom of where it&#39;s cool to not be smart. i call it the US cult of stupidity. And we wonder why our kids do so poorly on tests and why we&#39;re lagging behind other countries in education.
[/b]
:smil3f72836ee752e: That&#39;s the truth!

jazzijenni81
08-05-2006, 07:32 PM
I remember being teased for this as a kid/teen/even now...if you&#39;re familiar with my posts, you know it&#39;s not the deal. Sometimes we mistake non-typicality for acting White.

But that&#39;s not to say Uncle Tom doesn&#39;t have a following either.

Trenellm
08-05-2006, 07:53 PM
I remember this from school. Oh one level my feeling were hurt. On another level I felt sorry for anyone who thought being smart as "acting white"

but on another level I was like: whatever! Be dumb if you want to. I can see past high school. Now move because I&#39;m on the honor roll and get to go to lunch 15 minutes earlier.

bluephiyah
08-06-2006, 06:50 AM
the article explains that these are not "white" behaviors, so to speak, but behaviors that black students usually ascribe to their white counterparts: raising hands, answering questions, participating in class, excelling, etc. fryer&#39;s report attempts to empirically measure the /affects effects of "acting white" on black students, specifically peer popularity.
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maybe i should have added extra info with the title. i didnt mean to dredge up old "oreo" memories, like i said somewhere on the first page, though i should have known theyd be coming with full force. i wanted to see what people thought of his report, is it useful information, do you agree/disagree, etc.


i wont start an "oreo" spinoff thread, but maybe it should be done. so many people have memories they need to get out and off their chests.

Rhoyalti
08-06-2006, 10:48 AM
blue, this is a very interesting thread. I actually just began researching the phenomenon as part of a research assistantship I am doing for a law professor. Are you aware that there have been numerous studies done on this? As far back as 1986? If you&#39;re interested, I can pm you info about them. Since I&#39;ve just begun my research, I don&#39;t think I&#39;ve come across Fryer&#39;s report yet, so thanks for posting the link.

bluephiyah
08-06-2006, 01:35 PM
rhoyalti, im aware of some studies that take more a sociological approach than this economic? one. im specifically thinking of john ogbu&#39;s work (i cant remember his partner&#39;s name).

what are you researching?

Rhoyalti
08-08-2006, 08:52 PM
Sorry to just now be responding...I didn&#39;t log on yesterday...Anyway, I&#39;m researching William Darity, Jr.&#39;s work at the moment. His study reconsiders the Fordham-Ogbu studies. After that, I&#39;m supposed to read up on someone by the name of Steele, I believe.

xayide79
08-09-2006, 11:41 AM
Sorry to just now be responding...I didn&#39;t log on yesterday...Anyway, I&#39;m researching William Darity, Jr.&#39;s work at the moment. His study reconsiders the Fordham-Ogbu studies. After that, I&#39;m supposed to read up on someone by the name of Steele, I believe.
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Claude Steele or Shelby Steele? They are brothers with very different opinions on the same topic. I did my senior thesis on Claude Steele&#39;s stereotype threat research.

teewu
08-10-2006, 10:54 AM
this report isnt about speaking properly or raising of hands, necessarily. its more about the effects/affects of "acting white" on black students. for example, black students who "act white" are not as popular in schools, which may lead to "self-sabotage" and the embracing of that "oppositional culture" to be more popular. the report goes on to say that coolness stops and whiteness begins at a 3.5gpa for black students, a 2.5 for hispanic ones.

i dont mean to rehash old "oreo" memories for people. i know most of us have them. i was just interested in responses to the report and what it tries to prove. :)
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When it comes down to it, its really sad... So a black kid with a 4.0 is acting white regardless? Sad that some think just because one wants to better himself and be something in life (besides a rapper or ball player) that they are &#39;acting white&#39;? How much sense does that make? Our ancestors faught for the opportunities we have now days, and youre not black if you choose to take advantage of that? I have never understood this concept....

Rhoyalti
08-10-2006, 11:36 AM
Claude Steele or Shelby Steele? They are brothers with very different opinions on the same topic. I did my senior thesis on Claude Steele&#39;s stereotype threat research.
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I will be researching Claude Steele. :)

bluephiyah
08-10-2006, 01:48 PM
When it comes down to it, its really sad... So a black kid with a 4.0 is acting white regardless? Sad that some think just because one wants to better himself and be something in life (besides a rapper or ball player) that they are &#39;acting white&#39;? How much sense does that make? Our ancestors faught for the opportunities we have now days, and youre not black if you choose to take advantage of that? I have never understood this concept....
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according to that student&#39;s peers, yes, he may be exhibiting "white behavior". this isnt my view, or even fryer&#39;s view (i dont believe), but something that has existed in the black community for a long time and is getting some scientific research. just wanted to share with you ladies. :)

rhoyalti, ive heard of shelby, but not claude. ill have to do some investigating. ;)

Scribetastic
08-15-2006, 05:40 AM
this report isnt about speaking properly or raising of hands, necessarily. its more about the effects/affects of "acting white" on black students. for example, black students who "act white" are not as popular in schools, which may lead to "self-sabotage" and the embracing of that "oppositional culture" to be more popular. the report goes on to say that coolness stops and whiteness begins at a 3.5gpa for black students, a 2.5 for hispanic ones.

i dont mean to rehash old "oreo" memories for people. i know most of us have them. i was just interested in responses to the report and what it tries to prove. :)
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As someone who was teased for acting white in an integrated school, I think the study might be on to something regarding self-sabotage.

However, I never sabotaged myself because my parents always supported me and pretty much I knew the kids teasing me were idiots. So, whether justified or not, I had a sense of superiority which kept me working and saying true to myself rather than trying to conform.

Real Black Girl
08-16-2006, 08:52 AM
Speaking in standard English is one thing, but some Black people do act funny styled unlike any other race of people: We REFUSE to send the elevator back down. Don&#39;t diss your people. I understand Black folks that desire a better life and are blessed to be in a position to get that education, climb higher, and all that.
But NEVER forget who you should be down for, because it wasn&#39;t a single effort. When you sell out—You&#39;re sold!

Alisondra
08-16-2006, 01:27 PM
My child&#39;s education is much too important to leave only to teachers and other children. I can&#39;t imagine being uninvolved in the process.
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Amen!!! I&#39;m right there with you. My kids are 17 and 11 and I have never regretted the time we spend at home or out as a family adding to their knowledge bank!

bluephiyah
08-17-2006, 12:04 PM
Speaking in standard English is one thing, but some Black people do act funny styled unlike any other race of people: We REFUSE to send the elevator back down.
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do you think this bleeds into the self-sabotage argument?

expat, something about parental concern (involvement, even) seems to stop self-sabotage dead in its tracks. and i dont think fryer&#39;s report takes familial/parental involvement into consideration in such a way. it makes me wonder how many black kids wanted to, or maybe even tried to, until momma or daddy brought in that belt/took away the car/whathaveyou. . .

thanks for the reponses ^_^

CocoaCoily
08-17-2006, 12:44 PM
I can definitely see where some children would self-sabotage. When you&#39;re young, often-times one of your main concerns is being accepted by your peers.

But, when a child is self-sabotaging, that is the time for the parents and teachers to step up some more to put a stop to it.


You know what I find so ironic? When these kids grow up, who will they want to be their political leaders, their doctors, their lawyers, and etc? Those same smart kids they were accusing of acting white!

Real Black Girl
08-17-2006, 05:27 PM
do you think this bleeds into the self-sabotage argument?
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Yes Ma&#39;am I do.

Scribetastic
08-18-2006, 03:05 AM
Okay, I&#39;m going to be devils advocate here because there is always someone who says "don&#39;t forget where you came from" line. Now I don&#39;t know any black person, educated or uneducated, successful or unsuccessful who isn&#39;t accutely aware of and, usually, grateful for, where they came from.

What I find to this day is certain people will send a dig my way for not being black enough. For example, I recently got cited by a mainstream news magazine&#39;s website. I shared this good news with some friends and family. The husband of one of my friends joked that when would Vibe Magazine refer to anything I&#39;d written. That ish is NOT FUNNY. Now the claim is it was a good-natured jab but I see it as hurtful and nasty because it feels like he&#39;s digging me based on me not being quite black enough. But like me we all know the same folks in common and most of them are more like me than not (so I acknowlege I might just be hyper sensitive to it all).

The point is however it&#39;s stupid because as other races have people with various talents and tastes black Americans will attack each other for not conforming. This habit starts when we&#39;re really young too. Ironically, then we turn around and get angry when other races assume conformity by labeling us with racial stereotypes.

My point is that folks who&#39;ve been teased seriously might just want to distance themselves from the b.s. That&#39;s not how I think because I realize the actions of one shouldn&#39;t curse the whole, but I can see someone not really wanting to bother to help "thinking let them help themselves because they never helped me." In college, I was happy to finally meet other blacks like me and I formed tight bonds with most of them.

Black kids will get picked on for "acting white" if they apply themselves in school, so is it really that unpredictable that those same people when they grow up are going to have an aversion to people who teased them back in the day? I know for a fact that I still cringe a bit when I see people similar to kids who picked on me in school. I&#39;m friendly. I&#39;ll help them out with advice and a hand if they need it, but there is discomfort because you remember how crazy it was to be teased because you paid attention in class and liked reading.

I&#39;m not going to go out of my way to be close to folks like that. That&#39;s not forgetting where I came from either; that&#39;s me remembering it in very vivid detail.

naturalsystah
08-18-2006, 05:28 AM
it&#39;s amazing how we are the only country to have the phenomenom of where it&#39;s cool to not be smart. i call it the US cult of stupidity. And we wonder why our kids do so poorly on tests and why we&#39;re lagging behind other countries in education.
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Sadly, it&#39;s not just a US phenomenon. Too many stories/memories on this thread bear strong resemblances to mine... :(

GalaxyGirl2012
08-18-2006, 09:02 AM
Sadly, it&#39;s not just a US phenomenon. Too many stories/memories on this thread bear strong resemblances to mine... :(
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you&#39;re ruining my illusions about the eductaion system of the rest of the world :(

I wanted to also reply to what expat jane&#39;s recent post:

jane, i can absolutely understand what you are saying. i can definitely understand why people who are teased in school for acting white are leary about helping other people out. for instance i was teased alot in school. i went off to college and got an advanced degree and ran into one of the old people i went to school with. she did like 1 year of college and failed out. she contacted me because she heard i had a job at local publishing company and wanted to know if i could hook her up. i did have some pull in interviewing and the hiring manager, but i felt she wasnt right for the position or the company. so later she accused me of forgetting where i came from and essentially not sendingthe levator back down or whatever :rolleyes:

i asked her why was it my duty to make sacrifices and decisions in my life just so she could take advantage of it when it suited her needs? especially when she was too cool for school and wanted to spread rumors about how i cheated on entrance and placement tests :rolleyes:

i&#39;m all for helping people who want to help themselves but i have no love for people who do nothing and expect blacks who have "made it" to throw them some freebies.

as for remembering where you come from. i love how people say that in such a way to make it seem as if your place in life will always be whatever it was when you were a kid. it seems to me that themajority of people who saythis are just haters who cant admitthey havent done anything with their lives and expect every black person to be as miserable as they are.

Nina
08-18-2006, 09:22 AM
My point is that folks who&#39;ve been teased seriously might just want to distance themselves from the b.s. That&#39;s not how I think because I realize the actions of one shouldn&#39;t curse the whole, but I can see someone not really wanting to bother to help "thinking let them help themselves because they never helped me." ...I&#39;m not going to go out of my way to be close to folks like that. That&#39;s not forgetting where I came from either; that&#39;s me remembering it in very vivid detail.[/b]

I so agree, especially with the bolded part, and can see why an individual would not want to be bothered. A person has every right to be done with BS and not want to deal with it or have it in their lives (and if they chose otherwise I’d see them as being gluttons for punishment).

There is no way for a child, in the formative years when fitting in with one’s peers is important, can experience things like that and not remember, or somehow be totally and completely unaffected. That said I think, as people grow, they can either go extreme and hate, or they can accept that ‘this is life’, put things into perspective and see people as individuals but always always always be true to themselves (bunk the rest).

Often those same kids who ridiculed and called another a “sell out” or this or that because they enjoyed learning, dated IR or listened to Punk Rock will grow up to be the same adults quick to slobber “you forgot where you came from” or “you still X”; the main ones now expecting the same kind of people they criticized to bring them up - in addition to arrogantly assuming some right to tell them they have an ‘obligation’ and proclaim who that ‘obligation’ is to.

They went out of their way to let you know that you didn’t belong or behave as they felt you should when younger, then they grow up and talk like you are beholden to the same group they went out of their way to make you feel so not a part of. You have an obligation to them when they didn’t feel an obligation to any who did not tow their line and, often, those doing the naysaying have never did anything for anyone other than themselves.

IME one would be hard p.ressed to have ever seen most individuals who criticize those who are different involved in mentoring, volunteering to teach computer skills, helping someone learn English, how to read, or putting in time at a food bank or any community service, but yet they are the quickest to yap about who owes and have their hands out!

All of sudden they want to act like they were key in somebody’s success as if they’d personally dried the tears/gave out the hugs and invested encouragement, emotional support, food, tuition, $$ or whatever into it - when all they invested was naysaying, judgment and insults.

If it was one’s parents, family and friends who held them down and invested the things that helped them to succeed then, rightfully, that person is only beholden to those people and themselves.

Any other areas an individual feels beholden to can only come from the heart, with nothing to prove, and certainly not as a result of guilt-tripping or name-calling from crabs.