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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by debe_999 View Post
    ...and that's what makes them psychopaths.


    DeBe
    Yes. The cancer analogy doesn't actually work because when people talk about hating and eradicating cancer...when we use chemo to "kill" cancer...we're killing a bunch of malignant cells. Not human beings.

    I don't believe that people have an inherent sense of right and wrong. "Conscience" is a socially constructed idea, an externality internalized. But what we DO have is a sense of empathy. We can identify with other people who we recognize as human and imagine ourselves experiencing their pain. Sure, it's a self-serving identification (treating others decently because, oh isht!, that could be me!) but it prevents most people from acting too terribly towards their fellow humans.

    The people who fail to recognize others as human? They are the Hitlers of the world. Because no matter how much you try to treat another person like a cancerous cell or sub-human...they're still human. Failure to recognize that is pretty much the definition of a psycopath...and many people do call psycopaths evil.
    Last edited by Princess Pamplemousse; 06-02-2012 at 03:31 AM.
    the artist formerly known as Electra


  2. #22
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    Thank youPrincessP, I didn't have it in me to try to type that out today.

    DeBe

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urbanite View Post
    I'm not excusing anything. Their actions are definitely wrong. The rationale though...I'm not so sure. What makes them NOT psychopaths to me is that if they had different information they would (hopefully) make different choices.

    It's like men with AIDS who believe that sleeping with a virgin will cure them. Of course, we know that is not true. However, if a man really believes that having sex with a woman will cure him from a fatal disease then why would he NOT do so? Just like a person with cancer believes chemo will cure them. Why would they NOT take the chemo? The only difference between the two choices is that one is based on erroneous ideas or superstition.



    I just re-read the article and I still don't see it exactly like this.

    There is a part of the article that speaks about a "new breed of freelance killers" who are profitting big time off the body parts of albinos. Yes, I agree that these people are definitely evil and are simply out to gain wealth at the expense of others.

    But before that, the article says:

    "In many African nations - but most commonly in Tanzania - albinos are butchered in the street. Their remains are used in the macabre human potions used by traditional healers to treat the sick. Believing it will bring them good luck and big catches, fishermen on the shores Lake Victoria weave albino hair into nets. Bones are ground down and buried in the earth by miners, who believe they will be transformed into diamonds. The genitals are made into treatments to bolster sexual potency."

    I study African cultures and religions and this is actually a concept found in many places, not just related to albinos. One common word is called "Ndoki" which is often translated into "magic" or "bad spirit" but really represents the idea of certain objects and people being imbued with certain magical energy and potency.

    When I first read the article, I immediately thought, "They think the albinos are ndoki." Those people who are using their bones, their genitals, etc. literally believe they are just using a tool or an instrument given to them by God to make their lives better, the same way we cut down trees to make paper and furniture or we kill animals for food.

    Again, not saying it is right but I do understand the rationale. And with education I do believe this could change. There are other African groups who have had similar beliefs about other types of people and they were able to change their perspectives without outside influence.
    There was once a "rationale" in this country where publicly hanging and burning black ppl was cause for celebration, photo ops, and an all around good time. Psychopaths have a way of rationalizing what they want to get their needs met. I have to wonder if your own rationale is solely based on the fact these wretched ppl have blk skin.
    The killing of a person w/albinism and mutilating their genitals is not tantamount to someone cutting down a tree.
    I'll tell you this, if these murderers aren't eating and drinking their own feces, the only rationale they have for attacking pp w/albinism is pure evil.

  4. #24
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    This is just so sad and sick. I know where I live isn't perfect, but at least those born into albinism do have a chance at a normal life.
    Last edited by lin19lyn; 06-03-2012 at 01:37 AM.
    BC'd: June 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urbanite View Post
    When I first read the article, I immediately thought, "They think the albinos are ndoki."
    And the Hutus really thought the Tutsis were cockroaches, Hitler really thought the Jews were vermin, slavers really thought blacks were "ni66ers", etc., etc. etc. It's not hard to come up with a name to dehumanize those you want to exploit/kill/exterminate/{insert atrocity here}.
    Challenge Yourself.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Princess Pamplemousse View Post
    Yes. The cancer analogy doesn't actually work because when people talk about hating and eradicating cancer...when we use chemo to "kill" cancer...we're killing a bunch of malignant cells. Not human beings.

    I don't believe that people have an inherent sense of right and wrong. "Conscience" is a socially constructed idea, an externality internalized. But what we DO have is a sense of empathy. We can identify with other people who we recognize as human and imagine ourselves experiencing their pain. Sure, it's a self-serving identification (treating others decently because, oh isht!, that could be me!) but it prevents most people from acting too terribly towards their fellow humans.

    The people who fail to recognize others as human? They are the Hitlers of the world. Because no matter how much you try to treat another person like a cancerous cell or sub-human...they're still human. Failure to recognize that is pretty much the definition of a psycopath...and many people do call psycopaths evil.
    Quote Originally Posted by JustAnotherNappyGirl View Post
    And the Hutus really thought the Tutsis were cockroaches, Hitler really thought the Jews were vermin, slavers really thought blacks were "ni66ers", etc., etc. etc. It's not hard to come up with a name to dehumanize those you want to exploit/kill/exterminate/{insert atrocity here}.
    But I see a difference between Hitler and what these people are doing. I don't see a difference in the action but I do see a difference in the rationale. What they are doing is horrendous but I don't think the reason behind what they are doing is evil.

    Hitler had a well-developed agenda in order to gain power and control. Hutus were getting back at Tutsis for all their years in power. Blacks were enslaved for economic-turned-racist reasons. The reasons behind these acts were purely based upon trying to control and harm others.

    These people believe that certain aspects of nature are imbued with power and that these powers are can be utilized by humans for their benefit, in a similar way that an herb or a plant can be used for healing. From what this article is saying, the people who are using the bones and hair and genitals of albinos are not doing so based upon a well-developed scheme to control the world, revenge, or purely economic or racist reasons.

    So while I believe their actions are horrible I don't think that they fit into the same class as Hitler (just as I wouldn't say that a family who decides to pray for their fatally sick child instead of taking them to hospital is a Hitler) because I don't the reason behind what they are doing is an evil one.

    They aren't acting out of some crazy evil mindset. They think the albinos are Ndoki. Plain and simple. Teach them that they are not and they will stop.

    I know that doesn't make sense to most people but I sure wish I could be a part of some education program to assist with this problem.
    "To whom much is given much is required."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Urbanite View Post

    They aren't acting out of some crazy evil mindset. They think the albinos are Ndoki. Plain and simple. Teach them that they are not and they will stop.

    I know that doesn't make sense to most people but I sure wish I could be a part of some education program to assist with this problem.
    So basically, these particular Africans are just plain ol' stupid. All they need is a little education to change their ways. I guess education can do more to change their mindsets than a terrified child running away from them in the streets can. Well it's a good thing this unfortunate stupidity has not infected everybody in that region since there does appear to be those who have reached out to protect those with albinism and those who feel justified in prosecuting the stupid (er...uneducated) vermin who slaughter them.

  8. #28
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    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/1..._n_372976.html

    THIS IS AN ARTICLE FROM 2009
    NAIROBI, Kenya The mistaken belief that albino body parts have magical powers has driven thousands of Africa's albinos into hiding, fearful of losing their lives and limbs to unscrupulous dealers who can make up to $75,000 selling a complete dismembered set.

    Mary Owido, who lacks pigment that gives color to skin, eyes and hair, says she is only comfortable when at work or at home with her husband and children.

    "Wherever I go people start talking about me, saying that my legs and hands can fetch a fortune in Tanzania," said Owido, 36, a mother of six. "This kind of talk scares me. I am afraid of going out alone."

    Since 2007, 44 albinos have been killed in Tanzania and 14 others have been slain in Burundi, sparking widespread fear among albinos in East Africa.

    At least 10,000 have been displaced or gone into hiding since the killings began, according to a report released this week by the International Federation for the Red Cross and Crescent societies.

    East Africa's latest albino murder happened in Tanzania's Mwanza region in late October, when albino hunters beheaded 10-year-old Gasper Elikana and chopped off his leg, the report said. The killing left Elikana's father, who tried to defend his son, seriously injured.

    Albinism is a hereditary condition, but occurs only when both parents have albinism genes. All six of Owido's children have normal skin color.

    African albinos endure insults, discrimination and segregation throughout their lives. They also have a high risk of contracting skin cancer in a region where many jobs are outdoors.

    Owido, a high school teacher in the western Kenyan town of Ahero, says she was forced to transfer from a better teaching job on the Kenya-Tanzania border town of Isebania in 2008 after an albino girl she knew was murdered and her body parts chopped off.


    The surge in the use of albino body parts as good luck charms is a result of "a kind of marketing exercise by witch doctors," the International Federation for the Red Cross and Crescent societies said.

    The report says the market for albino parts exists mainly in Tanzania, where a complete set of body parts including all limbs, genitals, ears, tongue and nose can sell for $75,000. Wealthy buyers use the parts as talismans to bring them wealth and good fortune.

    "Albinism is one of the most unfortunate vulnerabilities," said International Federation for the Red Cross and Crescent societies Secretary General Bekele Geleta. "And it needs to be addressed immediately at an international level."

    The chairman of the Albino Association of Kenya, Isaac Mwaura, called the murders deplorable but said the killings have given albinos a platform to raise awareness.

    Almost 90 percent of albinos living in the region were raised by single mothers, Mwaura said, because the fathers believed their wives were having affairs with white men.

    "When I was born my father said his family tree doesn't have such children and left us," Mwaura said.

    Some African communities believe that albinos are harbingers of disaster, while others mistakenly think albinos are mentally retarded and discourage their parents from taking them to school, saying it's a waste of money, he said.

    Due to a lack of education, many albinos are illiterate and are forced into menial jobs, exposing them to the sun and skin cancer, he said. Those who manage to finish school face discrimination in the work place and are never considered for promotions.

    "People are very blind to albinism but it is very visible. Now that we have this issue in Tanzania is when people have started to talk about albinism," Mwaura said. "Before there was a studious silence."

    You'll notice I've highlighted several references regarding the monetary worth of albino body parts. Wealthy people seem to be heavily invested in obtaining these parts. Seems even the stupid can amass great amounts of wealth.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urbanite View Post
    These people believe that certain aspects of nature are imbued with power and that these powers are can be utilized by humans for their benefit, in a similar way that an herb or a plant can be used for healing. From what this article is saying, the people who are using the bones and hair and genitals of albinos are not doing so based upon a well-developed scheme to control the world, revenge, or purely economic or racist reasons
    Regardless of one's belief system, the willingness to kill another human being for gain is twisted and plain wrong. This is no different from the western evil of mugging and killing another human for their money or other material goods. From what you're saying, it's 'understandable' for me to just walk up to someone and kill them for the diamonds they're wearing, because it's to my benefit.

    How about, rather than teaching people that albinos are not Ndoki, we simply teach them that if an animated being looks human don't kill them, they are not created to line your pockets.....? That way if the labels change they won't go off and kill another person.

    DeBe
    Last edited by DeBe; 06-04-2012 at 08:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by debe_999 View Post
    Regardless of one's belief system, the willingness to kill another human being for gain is twisted and plain wrong. This is no different from the western evil of mugging and killing another human for their money or other material goods. From what you're saying, it's 'understandable' for me to just walk up to someone and kill them for the diamonds they're wearing, because it's to my benefit.

    How about, rather than teaching people that albinos are not Ndoki, we simply teach them that if an animated being looks human don't kill them, they are not created to line your pockets.....? That way if the labels change they won't go off and kill another person.

    DeBe
    Nope, it's not the same thing. Unless your belief system also includes the idea that humans are not over and above rocks, trees, and animals, then it is not the same.

    In some cultures, especially ones that practice human sacrifice (which does still exist) human beings are not looked upon as different than anything else in nature. In fact, in some societies you are not "born" human. You "become" human by performing certain ritual acts.

    So most people read these stories from their own particular worldview and then label the people as evil. I actually understand the worldview so I get the thinking behind all of it. Believe me, these same people would never think to kill someone because they have diamonds; it is wrong to kill someone for something they bought. However, just like we kill animals for food and cut down trees for paper -- extracting things from nature -- they view this killing of albinos in a similar way.

    Sounds crazy I know. And as crazy as it sounds I still can't put these people in the Hitler category.

    Now the dealers themselves...that's completely different, as I mentioned earlier. They are just out for money. But the people using the parts aren't. They are just...extracting from nature...

    "To whom much is given much is required."

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